00001
01
CAMP CROFT RESTORATION ADVISORY BOARD MEETING
01
*******************************************************
02
02
03
PLACE: SC School for
the Deaf and the Blind
03 Robertson Hall
04
04
DATE: Tuesday, March
12, 1996
05
05
TIME: 7:05 p.m. to
9:20 p.m.
06
06
PRESENTATIONS
07
GIVEN BY: Suzy McKinney
07 Zapata Engineering, P.A.
08 1100 Kenilworth Avenue, Suite 104
08 Charlotte, North Carolina 28204
09
09 Wayne Bogan
10 Project Manager
10 U.S. Army Corps of Engineers
11 Charleston District
11
12 BOARD
MEMBERS
12
PRESENT: Robert W.
Powell, Jr.
13 George Mullinax
13 Kathy Burrell
14 Gary Hayes
14 Gerald T. Thurmond
15 Sherry Wheeler
15 Clary H. Smith
16 William Littlejohn, Jr.
16 David Mullinax
17 Sanford N. Smith
17 Fritz Hamer
18 Gerard Perry
18 Dot
Sloan
19 Harold D. Osborne
19 James B. Thompson
20 Norma Borkowski
20 Darwin J. Wilson
21 W. Brownlee Lowry
21 John E. Keith
22
22
REPORTED BY: Sandy
Satterwhite Reporting
23 (864)574-1455
23
00002
01 INDEX
01
02
Welcome by Ms. McKinney. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
03
Mr. Mullinax on Resolution and Responses . . . . . 4
04
Mr. Thompson on Resolution and Responses . . . . . 4
05
Dr. Keith on Resolution and Responses. . . . . . . 6
06
Presentation by Mr. Smith. . . . . . . . . . . . . 35
07
Mr. Jessie Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 47
08
Presentation by Mr. Bogan. . . . . . . . . . . . . 64
09
New Business . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 92
10
Certificate of Reporter. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 126
00003
01 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
02
Good evening. Welcome to the
Restoration
03
Advisory Board Meeting tonight.
My name is Suzy
04
McKinney, and I would like to go ahead and call this
05
meeting to order.
06
Before we get started, I'd like to run through
07
this evening's agenda. The Board
members have copies,
08
and there were copies available at the front.
09
First on the agenda, we will walk through the
10
resolution that was submitted the end of February and
11
see if anyone has any responses to that resolution.
12
Mr. Smith will briefly discuss the 1945 news
13
accounts that he was able to get copies of.
14
Wayne is going to present the Supplemental
15
Archive Search Report, the first of a series of
16
briefings, and then we will move on to new business,
17
review agenda items for the April meeting, and we'll
18
hopefully adjourn between 8:30 and 9:00 this evening.
19
For your information, the Board members do have
20
copies of a summary of the February meeting
21
transcripts. There's two copies
of the full
22
transcript out front, if you would like to flip
23
through those.
24
We also have a copy of a trip report from the
25
Park tour. We had about 12
members attending a few
00004
01
Saturdays ago, if anyone would like to flip through
02
that.
03
As you all are aware, the resolution is
04
finalized based upon input from all of the Board
05
members and sent out on February 29th, and I would
06
like for Mr. Mullinax and Mr. Thompson, and any other
07
Board members who have happened to receive any
08
response to date on the resolution or just any other
09
correspondence regarding requests for funds, if they
10
would like to go ahead and briefly let us know what
11 they've
heard.
12
Mr. Mullinax, you had ---
13 BY
MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:
14
Well, the only one is just a phone call from
15
Thurmond's office that the money was available and
16
that we should be hearing something in two or three
17
weeks, so that time is about up, so I need to call
18
them or hope they call me, but he said they was right
19 on
top of it, and we should be hearing something soon.
20 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
21
Bob Inglis said basically the same thing. I
22
talked with him personally on Friday, and he had
23
reported that they had been working with the Assistant
24
Secretary of Defense on this.
25 BY
MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:
00005
01
Right.
02 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
03
That there were monies available in two places,
04
Wayne. One from the Corps of
Engineers general budget
05
and another one from the FUD budget.
06 BY
MR. BOGAN:
07
Okay.
08 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
09
And that that money was what they were hoping
10
they would come from. I -- I
told him that we needed
11
$10,400,000 right now, I believe is the figure that we
12
had to go on.
13 BY
MR. BOGAN:
14
Right.
15 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
16
And this is the figure that hopefully we will be
17
able to get. But then the same
thing -- about two
18
weeks is what he told me.
19 BY
MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:
20
David, didn't you get a letter from Hollings?
21 BY
MR. DAVID MULLINAX:
22
Yeah, Dr. Keith's got it.
23 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
24
Dr. Keith has got one, too.
25 BY
MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:
00006
01
He has. Okay.
02 BY
DR. KEITH:
03
Well, I just -- the bottom line is just that
04
Hollings said that -- that right now funds have been
05
appropriated for FY-96. Do you
know what that FY-96
06
means?
07 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
08
It would be October of '95 through September of
09
'96 is how are Fiscal Years run.
10 BY
DR. THOMPSON:
11
Okay. And funds have been
programmed for FY-97.
12 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
13
It's been appropriated for '96.
14 BY
DR. THOMPSON:
15
And then he said, "However, overall funding for
16
FY-97 will not be appropriated until action this
17
summer on FY-97 Defense Appropriation Bill."
18
So, FY-97, which is next year, apparently,
19
action will be taken this summer, but he said that
20
they've been programmed. Now
what does the word
21
"program" mean? Does
that mean that it's ready to go
22 or
are they thinking about it or what?
23 BY
MR. BOGAN:
24
The best way I can describe the process the way
25 to
get money is -- let me start with FY-97, Fiscal
00007
01
Year '97 and how that we do that.
02
When he's talking about for FY-97, he says, "We
03
have the money programmed for FY-97." What we do is
04 we
have to divide it nationwide for the FUDS program
05
for the Former Used Defense Sites.
We'll go into the
06
data base and insert how much money we think we're
07
going to need for that year to do our work.
08
So when he tells you that money has been
09
programmed for Fiscal Year '97 for Camp Croft, what he
10 is
telling you is that we have gone in, put money in,
11
requested money in the data base to continue work for
12
Fiscal Year '97.
13
What he means by appropriated money for FY-96 is
14
Congress comes in right around October of the Fiscal
15
Year and divvies out all the money to all the
16
different agencies.
17
So the money for this Fiscal Year, which ends
18
September 30th of '96, was given out in October.
19
That's what I was telling you that Huntsville this
20
year has a pot of money to set aside for one of those
21
projects, and we're going to tag some money to do that
22 --
do work on Camp Croft. Some of that
money can be
23
shifted to Croft and taken from other projects and
24
moved around.
25
With a high interest in this project, there's a
00008
01
good chance that a lot of the money is going to be
02
shifted to Camp Croft.
03 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
04
Would that be the Assistant Defense Secretary?
05 BY
MR. BOGAN:
06
It comes from the -- the acronym is DASA, Deputy
07
Assistant Secretary of the Army.
They're -- that's
08
the permanent office that I think Ms. Fretwell asked
09
the question at the last meeting who would be the
10
person that controls the money.
From the DASA office,
11
they will be the ones who will give the money to the
12
Corps of Engineers to do this work.
13
So, yeah, we've got some money already set aside
14 to
start on Camp Croft if we can get the contractor on
15
site in May. We already have the
money programmed and
16
what we think it's going to take to continue on with
17
our actions for Fiscal Year '97.
18
The problem we run into ---
19 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
20
In other words, you say you can start work in
21
July, then?
22 BY
MR. BOGAN:
23
We're hoping to get a contractor on site May to
24
June to actually start cleanup activities.
25 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
00009
01
Unless we get money earlier?
02 BY
MR. BOGAN:
03
We won't be able to get it any earlier, just for
04
the safety plans that the contractor has to submit,
05
there's work plans -- those type of submittals.
06 BY
DR. LOWRY:
07
60 days.
08 BY
MR. BOGAN:
09
And you're looking at 60 days.
The contract has
10
already been given to the contractor.
They're looking
11 at
coming up the 18th of ---
12 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
13
That's fine, yeah.
14 BY
MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:
15
That's all they can do.
16 BY
MR. BOGAN:
17
Yeah. The 18th I think is
Monday, and I think I
18
mentioned it to Gerry on the phone the other day, the
19
contractor is actually looking to come out then to
20
look at the site and see what he can do to prepare any
21
safety plans, the scope of work, the work plan that he
22 needs
to actually work on the site.
23 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
24
Well, one thing that was done, and I think was
25
really nice, and that was to have that whole county
00010
01
delegation. They got a copy of
the letters, and they
02
wrote letters also to Ernest Hollings and Thurmond and
03 I
know Bob Inglis got a letter from Laney Littlejohn.
04
It's in his district here.
05 BY
MR. BOGAN:
06
Right.
07 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
08
And Laney sent me a copy of the same letter, and
09
they referred to that.
10 BY
MR. BOGAN:
11
Right.
12 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
13
They were glad -- they're State people now ---
14 BY
MR. BOGAN:
15
Right.
16 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
17
--- involved in that.
18 BY
MR. BOGAN:
19
Right. And to kind of address
the Congressional
20
interest where Senator Thurmond and Hollings and those
21
that said they were requesting the money and that they
22
have been doing that.
23
Just some background, from what I understand,
24
Senator Thurmond's office, whether it's Senator
25
Thurmond himself or someone else, is calling on a
00011
01
weekly basis to our headquarters wanting to know how
02
we're doing on the project.
03 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
04
I know Bob said the same thing to that.
05 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
06
The next step then, and Wayne has requested that
07 --
or has let me know that the Corps of Engineers is
08
requesting a written statement from the Board.
09
We describe in that Resolution, or you the
10
Board, actually, is to describe that the proposed
11
remedy would be clearance to depth in all areas. And
12
Wayne has asked, on behalf of the Corps, that we
13
submit in writing the justification for clearance to
14
depth for all areas as opposed to the EE/CA remedy
15
alternatives, which some of those areas are
16
recommended to just be surface clearance.
17
And Wayne and I have spoken and we feel that the
18
best use of time and energy is maybe to have a
19
subcommittee to be developed to pull that statement
20
together.
21
Wayne can you give a little bit more information
22 on
what we're seeking.
23 BY
MR. BOGAN:
24
All right. Essentially, we've
provided you with
25
the EE/CA, the Engineering Evaluation and Cost
00012
01
Analysis and said these are the alternatives we want
02 to
do. This is how much it's essentially
going to
03
cost.
04
A resolution that went up, as to various
05
comments that you provided to Suzy in preparing the
06
resolution, you all requested that we do a clearance
07 to
depth on all of the areas. That's
fine. We wanted
08
your input and you gave it to us.
09
Now what I need you to do, in two of the areas
10
where we suggested or proposed a clearance for surface
11
only and you've suggested a clearance to depth, we
12
need to know some specific reasons.
13
And I -- I don't need major detail, but I need
14
you to come in and say, "We believe that because of
15
the community interest or because of the" ---
16 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
17
Are you talking about the 40 acres and the whole
18
thing?
19 BY
MR. BOGAN:
20
I think it's Area 2, which was off of
21
Henningston Road. We've proposed
surface clearance.
22
The resolution requires a clearance to depth, a
23
request for clearance to depth.
24
It was on another area, Area 1B, which is north
25 of
Twin Oaks picnic shelter. We proposed a
clearance
00013
01
for surface only, and the resolution requests a
02
clearance to depth.
03
Before I come back and say, "No, we're only
04
going to do clearance for the surface only," if you
05
can give me some -- some ideas of why you want to go
06 to
clearance to depth, kind of a justification of why
07
you feel that we need to go to clearance to depth,
08
then I can come back with a formal recommendation,
09
after taking your thoughts, and say, "Yeah, we agree
10
with your recommendations to go to clearance to depth,
11
and we'll change our scope of work to do that," or
12
"No, because of these reasons, we believe we still
13
only need to do a surface clearance."
14 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
15
Is that the $10,400,000?
16 BY
MR. BOGAN:
17
The $10,400,000 deals with clearance to depth on
18
all of them.
19 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
20
Okay.
21 BY
MR. BOGAN:
22
If you change back the surface clearance for
23
Area 2 and for Area 1B, I believe it drops the cost to
24 a
little over $8 Million, right around $9 Million.
25 BY
DR. LOWRY:
00014
01
Would you be there to guide us or will somebody
02
from the Corps be there? I've
got pretty good data on
03
this because of my involvement, but will somebody from
04
the Corps meet with us to kind of -- I mean, none of
05 us
are really ordnance people.
06 BY
MR. BOGAN:
07
Right. I can sit down with the
subcommittee at
08 anytime
that you want to, if that's what you want to
09
do, and I can kind of give you some more outlines of
10
what we're looking for.
11
I can't write it for you, because that goes
12
against what I've already recommended, but I will give
13
you any help that you need and any ordnance technical
14
assistance.
15
If you need an ordnance technician to come in,
16
Greg Bayuga from Huntsville or someone else, to give
17
you more input, then we can arrange that.
18 BY
DR. LOWRY:
19
So do you want volunteers?
20 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
21
Well, I think what we would like to do is ---
22 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
23
I'd like to ask the committee, why wouldn't we
24
want a surface clearance?
25 BY
MR. HAMER:
00015
01
Why would we?
02 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
03
Uh-huh (affirmative response).
Why wouldn't we
04
want to go there?
05 BY
MR. HAMER:
06
Well, I think we -- I think we ought to go as
07
far down as we can go. I'm not
in the military
08
service and never have been, but I've got some friends
09
who have been in ordnance in Vietnam and know about
10
ordnance in World War II, and they say that,
11
categorically, that going less than four to six feet,
12
then you're taking a big risk, and ---
13 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
14
Well, this is only 24 inches, I think.
15 BY
MR. HAMER:
16
That's -- I know and that's a problem I have.
17
And I've talked to other veterans here and elsewhere,
18
and if you look at this base that's been -- that was
19
here, the training facility for five years and the
20
amount of stuff that they played with here and
21
different climatic conditions, two -- two feet,
22 I
don't think is safe -- is adequate, and I -- and I
23 --
and I think -- and I think I know the reason why
24
that two feet is recommended is because of cost, but
25 if
we're -- we're taking a risk, I feel, not going as
00016
01
far down as -- as -- as all of the evidence shows that
02
this -- this ordnance is going.
03 BY
DR. LOWRY:
04
The Department of Defense Safety Ordnance,
05
Safety Explosive Ordnance, and your own EE/CA summary
06
had recommendations in there that the Department of
07
Defense Safety Ordnance, Safety Explosive Ordnance,
08
recommends 12 inches of clearance for grazing of
09
cattle.
10
It recommends four feet for any residential --
11 10
feet for residential, but for any kind of public
12
use it's a minimum of four feet, and that's why you
13
said last time that if you went to 24 inches and there
14
was something down there still that you would go to
15
four feet.
16 BY
MR. BOGAN:
17
Right.
18 BY
DR. LOWRY:
19
But in areas of the Park that -- that are --
20
that are way over on the side that can be clearly
21
marked that are used for hunting only and really
22
nobody ever goes there, that's what kind of
23
recommendation that you all are hunting for rather
24 than
a clearance to four feet?
25
If they cleared my land to four feet, they would
00017
01
kill every tree on it, just about.
02 BY
MR. CLARY SMITH:
03
That's a question. How are you
going to clear
04 it
where you've got all of them trees?
05 BY
DR. LOWRY:
06
Well, that's -- that's just -- well, that's the
07
problem I had, but when they cleared the part that
08
they cleared, they dug a hole every six inches, and
09
there are areas that -- that I would not feel safe
10
with for less than four feet myself, having dealt with
11
ordnance people now for two years, but in some other
12
areas that are not as utilized by humans that can be
13
clearly marked, fine, two feet would be different, but
14 then
you've got other things, like erosion.
You've
15
got frost heave. You've got all
these other things
16
that tend to make it migrate to the top that it's in
17
your writing. I would think I'd
be glad to serve on a
18
subcommittee if you all want one.
19 BY
MR. BOGAN:
20
Let me address two things in there.
First, the
21
difference between a surface clearance and a clearance
22 to
depth.
23
Surface clearance is purely that, surface.
24
Okay. When they come in and do a
surface clearance,
25 if
they see something sticking out of the ground or
00018
01
they can scrape away the first inch or two of soil and
02
find something, then they'll clear that. That's what
03
recommended now for Areas 1B and Area 2.
04
The reason the rationale behind that is, one,
05
the low use. They're in areas
where, the majority of
06
the area, there's not a horse trail.
There's no
07
recreation going on and there's no planned activities
08 in
the future.
09
Since there is no planned activities and nothing
10
being used for the sites, other than maybe somebody
11
walking over on the site now, why do you need to go
12
any deeper than maybe 6 to 12 inches in that area?
13
A clearance to depth, as recommended in Area 7,
14
the recreation area, the campground, whatever, the
15
recommendation is two feet, 24 inches, because of the
16 --
what we know we've already found on the property.
17
All right. The clearance to
depth can vary
18
based on what we know, and since we've already done
19
sampling, we know that the ordnance is located within
20 22
inches of the surface. They've
recommended just a
21
blanket two feet on the Area 7.
22
Okay. So if they -- the way it's
set up now,
23
based on lack of use, lack of future constructions in
24
Areas 1B and Area 2, then it's just a surface only,
25
probably within six inches of the surface. We won't
00019
01
actually go down to two feet.
02
The clearance to depth in Area 7 and Area 3,
03
when they look at those areas and go down, that will
04 be
down to 24 inches. If we find anything
deeper than
05
that, they will go down to the four feet.
06
And, hopefully, that will clarify the difference
07
between surface and ---
08 BY
MR. DUBEAU:
09
Can I ask you a question, please?
10 BY
MR. BOGAN:
11
Yes, sir.
12 BY
MR. DUBEAU:
13
You're talking about two feet.
If you're going
14 to
go down further, how are you going to find out
15
what's down there if you don't test it?
16 BY
MR. BOGAN:
17
What they're expecting with the magnetometer
18
when they get a reading that they don't expect it to
19 be
deeper than two feet. Okay. If I'm walking over
20
this area and I get a beep from the metal detector,
21
and I find it, they'll dig down and they don't expect
22 it
to be more than two feet. However, if
they haven't
23
found it at two feet, they will continue down to dig
24
for it.
25 BY
MR. DUBEAU:
00020
01
Is that done every time that they test?
02 BY
MR. BOGAN:
03
It's supposed to be, yes, sir.
04 BY
MR. DUBEAU:
05
Oh, suppose. Yeah, that's a big
thing.
06 BY
MR. BOGAN:
07
I'm not -- the reason I say "supposed to" is
08
because I'm not there with the crews.
I don't ever go
09
there. As a manager, I sit back
and we have those
10
safety ordnance technicians.
11 BY
MR. DUBEAU:
12
I understand your end of it, but there's a lot
13 of
stuff a lot deeper than three feet or four.
14 BY
MR. BOGAN:
15
Potentially, yes, sir.
16 BY
MR. DUBEAU:
17
Yeah, you better believe it.
18 BY
MR. BOGAN:
19
But the sampling indicates right now, we've only
20
found it down to two feet, and so that's the
21
recommendation.
22
If they dig down to two feet and the
23
magnetometer really doesn't read anything after that,
24
then they'll stop, but that's a call for the safety
25
technician or the safety guy that we've got on the
00021
01
site at that time.
02 BY
MR. DUBEAU:
03
Thank you.
04 BY
MR. BOGAN:
05
Yes, sir. Dr. Powell.
06 BY
DR. POWELL:
07
I'm concerned about what it takes to get down
08
there. Do we clear the Park to
do this or do we just
09
dig where the ping hits?
10 BY
MR. BOGAN:
11
We'll dig where the ping hits, and I'm working
12 on
getting a video that will show you the crew
13
actually walking the area.
14 BY
DR. POWELL:
15
How much clearing has got to be done to do that?
16 BY
MR. BOGAN:
17
The area just has to be cleared enough for the
18
person to walk through. If
there's any major brush,
19
like kudzu, then we'll have to clear the kudzu out so
20
that they can walk through and have a clear area that
21
they can use the metal detectors.
22
They'll walk through and they'll sweep and
23
usually have about four or five people on line, and
24
they go up side by side through an area until they set
25 up
and clear lanes one at a time.
00022
01
If they get a beep, an anomaly from the
02
magnetometer, then they stop and they'll put a flag
03
there and they'll go on. Then
they'll come back, and
04
each one of those flags they can come back and
05
investigate and dig that one hole.
06 BY
DR. POWELL:
07
Would this be a 100 percent search or just a
08
random sampling?
09 BY
MR. BOGAN:
10
We've already done a sampling.
The clearance in
11
like in Area 7 will be a 100 percent clearance of that
12
area.
13 BY
DR. POWELL:
14
Okay.
15 BY
MR. BOGAN:
16
Yes, sir.
17 BY
MR. HAYES:
18
What's the depth of the magnetometer will pick
19
up?
20 BY
MR. BOGAN:
21
They are calibrated to go to four feet for a 105
22
millimeter artillery shell, so ---
23 BY
MR. HAYES:
24
So they won't go deeper than four?
25 BY
MR. BOGAN:
00023
01
You might, depending on how they're set up, but
02
the way they ---
03 BY
MR. HAYES:
04
When you dig deeper, will it make it less ---
05 BY
MR. BOGAN:
06
The deeper it is, the harder it will be to pick
07 it
up with a magnetometer.
08 BY
DR. LOWRY:
09
It has a lot to do with the size of the object.
10 A
105 is about like this. If you had a
piece of
11
shrapnel that big, it wouldn't ---
12 BY
MR. BOGAN:
13
Point it out.
14 BY
DR. LOWRY:
15
But it will pick it up quite well, I mean, from
16
four feet.
17 BY
MR. HAYES:
18
Will it pick up a mortar, a small mortar?
19 BY
MR. BOGAN:
20
The mortars -- and I don't -- not being the
21
ordnance technician, down to two feet to three feet it
22
picks up the mortars real well.
23
As you get deeper down, you get less of a
24
reading. That's why if they get
just a small reading,
25
they'll start digging; and as they get a bigger
00024
01
reading as they dig down, as they remove that surface,
02
then they know that there is something there and they
03
can continue on.
04
Mr. Osborne.
05 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
06
Yeah, on the work that was done between 8/8/94
07 and
January 17th of '95, and I was one of the only
08
three of us that checked out the items that it's in
09
the library, and I was the third one, but going over
10 00
or the one 7 Area, and just reading from the
11
reports that I read from it, Area 8, "Unexploded 60
12
millimeter 18 mortar fuse fins, M-1 cups everywhere."
13
"Area B, picnic, playground, bleachers, parking
14
lots, large quantities of mortar pins found."
15
"Area C, 15 to 25 subsurface contacts."
16
"Area D, 10 subsurface
contacts located but not
17
investigated."
18
"Area E, covered with vines and vegetation,
19
would require cleaning so was not searched."
20
"Area F, it extends to the lake.
Subsurface
21
range, 10 to 15 contacts per grid," and each grid is a
22 10
by 10 feet, and going on to that, "the grids were
23
not checked inside the horse arena."
24
If we're going to do it, how come it wasn't done
25
last time to a certain point of getting rid of some of
00025
01
this and checked right? Are we
going to run into the
02
same problem if we put out a contract again? It would
03 --
we're having all those problems on the other one.
04
I'll give you a couple more things I read out of
05
it. "On 3/15 on '95, large number of contacts,
06
estimated mortars within one feet of the surface -- of
07
the surface in the opened recreation area. Map used
08
not accurate." So it makes
me stop and wonder on 1.2
09 --
1.2 and 1.1, 00U1A, only a small portion, less than
10
one percent of the 00U sample, all right, ordnance may
11 be
present but some level of risk greater than zero
12
exists.
13
Why wasn't it checked?
14 BY
MR. BOGAN:
15
Okay. You've got me at a little
bit of a
16
disadvantage in that I don't have the report in front
17 of
me, and I've read it, but that's been several
18
months ago.
19
In some of the areas where they went through and
20
they just got magnetometer hits, all right, they were
21
either directed by the ordnance tech, safety
22
technician to dig or not to dig.
23
The purpose of the original area in some of them
24
was to go down and get the surface clearance because
25
that was a time critical.
00026
01 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
02
Okay.
03 BY
MR. BOGAN:
04
Okay. Now are you talking about
the surface
05
clearance for Area 7 or Area 6?
06 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
07
7.
08 BY
MR. BOGAN:
09
Okay.
10 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
11
This is what was all that where it's came out,
12
Area 8B, C, D, E, F.
13 BY
MR. BOGAN:
14
Okay. I'm just making sure,
because the dates
15
you've got in there for August whatever, I've got to
16
make sure that the copy in the library is ---
17 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
18
Well, the work that was in that book is 8/8/94
19
through 1/17 of '95.
20 BY
MR. BOGAN:
21
Okay. The contractor may have
misprinted the
22
dates on there. The actual work for
Area 7 was taken
23
place from, I believe it was, January of '95 through
24
March of '95.
25 BY
DR. LOWRY:
00027
01
That's on my land.
02 BY
MR. BOGAN:
03
All right.
04 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
05
That's on yours. I'm talking
about the Area 7.
06 BY
DR. LOWRY:
07
Area 7.
08 BY
MR. BOGAN:
09
Okay. I'll have to go through
and look at each
10
one of those areas, if you want me to address the
11
specific ones.
12
If they were going through and they did a
13
surface sweep of an area and they were trying to clear
14
the surface and they got an anomaly that hit on the
15
magnetometer, if the safety technician and ordnance
16
guys didn't believe that it was a large enough anomaly
17 to
actually be a mortar, if it was just a pin or a
18
piece of shrapnel, then they probably would not have
19
dug on it.
20
If they thought that it was deep enough, then
21
that's when they went down and dug any of the pieces
22 of
mortars down to the one foot clearance in that
23
area.
24
Does that help you to understand why in some
25
areas they didn't dig?
00028
01 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
02
I see what you're saying, but let's go back to
03 --
there were two or three others that was here on
04
Friday's meeting with the other outfit and watching
05
and looking at the maps and trying to coordinate from
06
1944 up to the map of 1989, I think it was.
07 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
08
'89.
09 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
10
By satelite.
11 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
12
By satelite, etcetera, and the way that they
13
have it set up that mortars were fired, artillery was
14
fired is a little bit different than what was checked.
15
Now is this guy going back to 00U1A, which is
16
the area down by the entrance to the Park and all down
17 in
there, and only a small portion, less than one
18
percent was sampled, and they said they don't even
19
know if it exists. It could be at
higher risk, but it
20
wasn't sampled.
21
Now reading some of the -- into some of the
22
reports that we got Friday, now you can't maybe go to
23
all of them as 100 percent accurate, but if we only
24
used 25 percent of what was said, there is some
25
problems out there.
00029
01 BY
MR. BOGAN:
02
Again, I'm at a ---
03 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
04
Really bad problems.
05 BY
MR. BOGAN:
06
I'm at a disadvantage in that I wasn't at the
07
meeting Friday and don't know what was presented to
08
you. Now if you want me to
address what we sampled in
09
what areas and Area 1A, I can do that.
I prefer that
10 we
do that in the new business.
11 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
12
Okay.
13 BY
MR. BOGAN:
14
So that we can get on with the resolution and
15
get on the rest of the meeting.
So if you want me to
16
address that in the new business, I can do that.
17 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
18
That will be fine.
19 BY
MR. BOGAN:
20
Okay. Any other questions related to the
21
resolution and putting together a subcommittee.
22 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
23
Is there a motion then to refer the matter of
24
presenting this response in writing to the Corps of
25
Engineers? Is there a motion set
forth?
00030
01 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
02
I'll make a motion it be accepted and printed.
03 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
04
I'll second it.
05 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
06
And we'd like this to be a small workable
07 committee. How many members do you feel would be
08
accurate or adequate to serve on the committee?
09 BY
MR. BOGAN:
10
I was going to recommend four.
11 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
12
I was about to say what's your recommendation?
13
How many do you want to work with?
14 BY
MR. BOGAN:
15
I don't -- you know, we could have everybody
16
there, but then we might as well have it on a regular
17 --
you know, another Board meeting a different night,
18
but I figured if we get four, then we can get a couple
19
people together and I can work with you in getting
20
recommendations.
21 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
22
Since we do not have a chair to nominate
23
members, if the Board would like to nominate four
24 individuals to serve on the committee to seek those
25
nominations ---
00031
01 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
02
Repeat again what this committee ---
03 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
04
Or volunteers.
05 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
06
Repeat again what this committee will do.
07 BY
MR. BOGAN:
08
The purpose of the committee is to look at the
09
resolution and provide some written justification to
10
the Corps of Engineers as to why in Areas 1B and Area
11 2
you think that we need to do a clearance to depth
12
versus a surface clearance, as we've proposed.
13
We have -- Dr. Lowry has volunteered.
Do we
14
have any other volunteers or someone else that would
15
like to be a part of it?
16 BY
MR. HAYES:
17
It's just for 1B and 2?
18 BY
MR. BOGAN:
19
Right, and, hopefully, it won't take long to sit
20
down maybe one afternoon. I can
come up and do it on
21 an
afternoon when we get everybody together or
22
something that would be better for anyone who would
23
want to volunteer.
24 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
25
I'll volunteer.
00032
01 BY
MR. BOGAN:
02
Mr. Osborne. We have two. I'll try and get a
03
room that we can just sit down in hopefully a half an
04
hour, maybe an hour, however long, how many questions
05
you have related to that.
06 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
07
When do you think it will be?
I'll be gone the
08
month of April. I -- I can do it
before the first of
09
April.
10 BY
MR. BOGAN:
11
We should be able to do it before the first of
12
April. I'm tied up next
week. I can't do it then,
13
but after that, I'm open until the first of May. I'm
14
free to do it.
15 BY
MR. PERRY:
16
I'll volunteer.
17 BY
MR. BOGAN:
18
Mr. Perry. Anyone else would
like to sit down
19
for about a half an hour or an hour?
20 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
21
Put my name down there.
22 BY
MR. BOGAN:
23
All right.
24 BY
DR. KEITH:
25
And after they sit down and discuss this thing,
00033
01
then that's going to be brought back to this Board to
02
hear the recommendation, right?
03 BY
MR. BOGAN:
04
Correct.
05 BY
DR. KEITH:
06
Before we send anything out?
07 BY
MR. BOGAN:
08
The committee will come back before the Board,
09
present its recommendations, vote, and then I'll take
10
that, and by the next meeting hopefully have
11
definitive answer when our fellows research your
12
recommendations, your justifications for clearance to
13
depth.
14 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
15
Are they going to hold up money until we get
16
this recommendation?
17 BY
MR. BOGAN:
18
No, sir. We're going -- we're
going to continue
19 with
what we've got right now, but it may mean that we
20
have to do some extra work.
21
And Area 1B is not much of a problem.
You're
22
looking at a small increase, comparatively, for the
23
increase going from a surface clearance to clearance
24 to
depth.
25
Area 2 is a good bit of a difference.
We're
00034
01
talking about a 1.5 Million dollars increase in costs.
02 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
03
Over the $10,400,000?
04 BY
MR. BOGAN:
05
No, sir. Oh, over the EE/CA
recommends at the
06
moment.
07 BY
DR. LOWRY:
08
So it is over the $10,400,000.
09 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
10
Huh?
11 BY
DR. LOWRY:
12
That is over the $10,400,000.
13 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
14
It's in the $10,400,000.
15 BY
DR. LOWRY:
16
No, sir, it's over the $10,400,000.
17 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
18
The $10,400,000 was for all areas to be cleared
19 to
depth, so surface clearance then would decrease
20
that total.
21 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
22
Okay.
23 BY
MR. BOGAN:
24
Okay. No further volunteers,
requests? I guess
25 we
can put it to a vote -- put it a vote to the Board
00035
01
that this committee go forward and take action before
02
the next meeting. All those in
favor say "I."
03
(SEVERAL RESPOND)
04 BY
MR. BOGAN:
05
Oppose, "Nay."
06
(NO RESPONSE)
07 BY
MR. BOGAN:
08
I'll get -- if you'll get with me briefly
09
afterwards, we'll try to set up a date to determine
10 that.
11 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
12
Mr. Sanford Smith has some items he'd like to
13
bring forth this evening.
14 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
15
The last meeting we had talked considerably
16
about accidents and injuries that had been caused by
17
the duds that were left at Camp Croft by the Army.
18
Several people mentioned that they could
19
remember one that they knew of, and knowing some --
20
having some knowledge of it, we went ahead and did
21
some checking.
22 I knew the -- two of the ladies that their
23
fathers were involved in the area where the death
24
occurred. I talked to Ms. Albert
Jones, Albert Murph
25
Jones, and she referred me to her sister, Ms. Marion
00036
01
Murph, that -- whose fathers had been involved in the
02
area that -- in the work that was being done to where
03
the people were killed.
04
So I called Marion and talked with her and she
05
gave me the name of a gentleman who was killed, one of
06
them, and also the name of his son, and I called his
07
son and talked with him and he gave me the dates.
08
That was the thing that we couldn't tie down. We
09
thought -- everybody thought it was after the military
10
had left, but in talking with Mr. Jessie Johnson,
11
whose father had been killed, why we found out that it
12
was actually when the military was still here.
13
And I invited Mr. Johnson and his family here,
14
and we're honored to have him with us tonight.
15 BY
MR. JOHNSON:
16
Thank you.
17 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
18
And all -- all the Board members had received
19
copies of these comments and I have given them to
20
them.
21
On the first page, you'll see where the two were
22
killed in the explosion at Croft -- at Croft, and on
23
the second page it's concerning the inquest and the
24
investigation that was held there.
25
The date of the accident was July the 11th, 1941
00037
01 --
excuse me -- 1945, so the military was still here
02 at
the time; and as the report states, the range in
03
the area that the people were in had been used that
04
afternoon, and Mr. Murph and those had had clearance
05 to
go into the peach orchards and pick the peaches and
06
all and this was where the area was.
07
As close as I can tell, it was off of
08
Henningston Road, what is now Henningston Road there
09
from White Stone, and there was mortar range along
10
that area, and it had been used that afternoon.
11
So they went in. They had found
a dud. They
12
had instructed the people to bypass it, leave it
13
alone, had showed it and one of the gentlemen went
14
over and picked up the dud and looked at it and laid
15 it
back down.
16
The second person went over and picked it up and
17
laid it under one of the peach trees, assumed out of
18
the way of the trucks and the things that would be
19
going through; and then the third person went over and
20
picked it up, put it in his pocket and went back onto
21
the vehicle they were riding in and that's when it
22
blew up, and Mr. Johnson's father was killed, and he
23
was not -- from the reports, it indicated here, he was
24
not involved in the handling of it.
25
And to the best of all the knowledge that I can
00038
01
find and talking with people is -- all that we've been
02
able to find, as far as fatalities are concerned, and
03
there were two killed in that explosion, there's been
04
one remembrance of someone who had -- a child had
05
found something and had carried it home and it went
06
off and it blew up and injured his hand.
07
But I've been -- not been able to put any kind
08 of
dates or anything or any information to that at
09
all. Two people -- I said one
remembrance. Two
10
people had remembered the incident, but one said it
11
was a person from over in the Hill -- Hillbrook area,
12
the eastside of Spartanburg. The
other person said
13
they thought it was a child from Pacolet, so I -- I
14
don't know. If anybody has any
information on that,
15
we'll pursue that further.
16 BY
DR. LOWRY:
17
If you'll call Neal Robinette, I think it was
18
his brother.
19 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
20
Okay.
21 BY
DR. LOWRY:
22
And there were some boyscout called Ludington
23
who built a fire on a live clip, a .30 caliber, and
24
this was told to me by Milo Wilson.
It was in the
25
'60s, and he had to have his face stitched up, but it
00039
01
wasn't a fatality or a serious injury.
That's all
02
that I can find with those two.
03 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
04
And that was Neal Robinette?
05 BY
DR. LOWRY:
06
Neal Robinette.
07 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
08
Okay. I'll call Neal and talk to
him.
09 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
10
Do you know Neal?
11 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
12
Yeah. Okay. The other thing I did, I didn't
13
get -- have time to get a copy to Suzy to put out with
14
the agenda, but I wrote a letter to the Office of the
15
Chief of Ordnance in Aberdeen Proving Grounds in
16
Maryland.
17
My military experience was in ordnance, and I
18
felt like I could find some information out, so I got
19 an
address there and wrote them concerning the type of
20
ammunition that the 57 millimeter antitank gun used
21
and what type they had actually manufactured.
22
That was what we were particularly interested
23
in, and hopefully being able to determine possibly
24
what type of projectiles were down in the Camp Croft
25
area. And the Office of the
Chief of Ordnance
00040
01
forwarded the letter to the US Army Ordnance Museum,
02
which the -- William Atwater indicated if we had any
03
further questions, this would -- he would be glad to
04
work with us and help us out with any information, so
05
that might be a good contact, Wayne, to get some
06
history.
07 BY
MR. BOGAN:
08
Sure.
09 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
10
They may even have some history of what was
11
utilized here. But, anyway, the
two rounds of
12
ammunition had been authorized to be manufactured for
13
this gun.
14
The first shot was armor piercing, 57
15
millimeter, M-70, substitute standard.
The warhead
16
for this particular round was a solid shot of hardened
17
steel with a tracer cavity in its base.
The shot
18
itself is 6.81 inches long and weighs 6.28 pounds, and
19 it
gives a little bit more details.
20
The second shot was a projectile, armor-piercing
21
capped, 57 millimeter, M-86, standard, and the M-86
22
had a base detonating fuse and it was developed to
23
meet the demands for an APC round containing a
24 high-explosive charge. It
weighed -- the projectile
25
weighed 7.27 pounds, and then somewhere it says -- I
00041
01
thought it said the length, but, anyway ---
02 BY
DR. POWELL:
03
7.27. Oh, that's long.
04 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
05
Yeah, that's -- that's ---
06 BY
DR. POWELL:
07
That's the total.
08 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
09
That's the whole -- that's not just the
10
projectile. That's the whole
round, I think, but
11
anyway, that's -- we had the two types.
Those are the
12
only two types of ammunition that were developed for
13
this. There were no
incendiaries, no illuminating or
14
anything like that.
15
My knowledge of Camp Croft and the 57 millimeter
16
firing range up until, I'm going to say early '44, the
17
only thing they had there was moving paper targets
18
that went across on a track.
They had no
19
armor-piercing or anything like that at that point to
20
shoot at, so I -- I don't really remember any of them
21
exploding when they hit when we were watching, anyway,
22
but then in '44 or somewhere along there, they did
23
bring in three pieces of tanks that they used as
24
targets, stationary targets, and here again, they shot
25 at
those, but I don't ever remember seeing anything
00042
01
explode when it hit.
02
Extra copies of this and all are out on the
03
table.
04 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
05
Sanford.
06 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
07
Yes, sir.
08 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
09
On Friday night the three of us attended a
10
meeting here by the World Armament Research officials,
11
WAR for short, and this gentleman told us, and they
12
have everything they had in World War II out here.
13
I believe you, what you're saying.
I'm just
14
wondering where our stories come from now, because
15
they had shells there they showed us and the types of
16
shells they had, and it was really something to see.
17 I
wish more of this committee had been there.
George
18
was there.
19 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
20
I'm sorry I wasn't. I was out of
town at the
21
time, but my opinion and feeling along that line,
22
those people are, again, working on the scare tactics,
23
and they want us ---
24 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
25
Well, they had us all scared.
00043
01 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
02
Yeah, and they want us to believe that that
03
place is going to blow up tomorrow.
04 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
05
They were ---
06 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
07
I've wandered -- I've wandered over that place
08
for 50 years now, and, you know, I ---
09 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
10
Well, see, I'm concerned about this, though,
11
Sanford. He had maps that --
what was it, the '89
12
map?
13 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
14
Right. Uh-huh (affirmative
response).
15 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
16
I mean it showed actually where the gunnaries
17
were and everything. He had the
'44 map, which I
18
believe George has a copy of that I think everybody on
19
the panel ought to look at sometime, but he -- I mean,
20 he
actually showed the ranges out there that were
21
fired, where they were fired and all this stuff and
22
what shells were fired, and I'm curious as to how this
23
guy got all this information.
24
He said he got from the Archives.
Well, I did
25
look at one piece from the Archives that he had and it
00044
01
had been altered, but I really would like to know
02
where he got all his information come, because he --
03
I'd like to have him come before us.
04 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
05
I think that would be a good idea.
06 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
07
He -- he said he spent $15,000 out there
08
already, and I said, "Well, when are you going to stop
09
spending?" And he said,
"I don't know. If anybody
10
wants me to go on their property, I'll go," but he's
11
not going to bid to clean it up.
12 BY
MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:
13
Jim, let me tell you, I talked to a guy that --
14
where they exploded this ammunition, and he said he
15
believed him until they showed him some pictures of
16
the ammunition, and they had put new black caps on
17
them.
18
He said, "Now wait a minute."
He said, "That's
19
new." He said, "That
was a dud originally," and they
20
put these little caps on them.
That's what he said.
21
He said, "I was believing them until I saw the
22
pictures of it, and the shell was rusty and
23 everything, but they had put a little black nose
24
something on it.
25 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
00045
01
The fuse. That's the fuse. That's the fuse,
02
yeah.
03 BY
MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:
04
Yeah, right. That's what I'm
saying, but he
05
said this was new. This was
shiny, you know. He
06
said, "Something ain't right here." He said, "I ain't
07 --
you people can leave. I don't believe
you." I
08
don't know.
09 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
10
I think -- here again, I think this guy -- I
11
haven't talked to him, and I wish I had been here, but
12 I
kind of feel like they're trying to use the scare
13
tactics and just get everybody so upset that they
14
panic and do whatever they want on the land and do it.
15 BY
MR. HAMER:
16
I have to, sir, disagree with you in a sense of
17
calling it scare tactics just to scare people, because
18
you've got a huge amount of land there, and you don't
19
have a lot of folks that go into that area, generally.
20
You go in there and you've gone in there through your
21
lifetime and -- but you don't cover the whole area.
22
But as this -- as this country, this area grows,
23
more and more people get into these areas, there's a
24
bigger chance of somebody finding something that none
25 of
us and none of you people here -- I don't live
00046
01
here, but none of you have confronted that all of a
02
sudden that it could suddenly appear, and it could be
03 a
very dangerous thing.
04
That it seems harmless or almost harmless
05
because of the fact that people don't get into the
06
areas, but we have -- I think we have the ultimate job
07 of
this, you know, committee and the removal is we've
08
got to try to -- try to eliminate as many possible
09
future dangerous situations as possible, and to say
10
that this is scare tactics just to be scared, I think
11
it's a matter that can be dangerous in itself. I
12
don't think it can be -- I don't think it's frivolous.
13 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
14
What I would like to do, in the interest of
15
time, is to discuss -- if you want to discuss Friday's
16
meeting in a little bit more detail, go back into it
17
during the new business so that we can move on with
18
the Supplemental Archive Search.
We're trying to keep
19
this meeting a little bit shorter than our past
20
meetings. We tend to run a
little over, so if that
21
would be okay to discuss that a little bit later, let
22
Wayne go on in the Supplemental Archive Search.
23 BY
MR. DUBEAU:
24
Mr. Bogan, have you got a minute?
25 BY
MR. BOGAN:
00047
01
Yes, sir.
02 BY
MR. DUBEAU:
03
I don't think it's scare tactics at all, and I
04
think that it is a very, very serious thing that has
05
happened out here. And if you
have families that's
06
living out here and you have children and
07
grandchildren, I think that this has to be answered.
08
I'm not blaming anybody on the committee or
09
anything like that. I'm not even
interested in that,
10
but I think you have to face the facts.
There is
11
stuff out there, and if anybody sitting here thinks it
12
isn't dangerous, then he doesn't know what's out
13
there.
14
Now I was there. I don't have to
read a book or
15
nothing else, and I know what they did and how
16
careless they were with it, but, please, recognize
17
this for the good of your families and anybody
18
concerned in this. Okay? That's all I want.
19 BY
MR. BOGAN:
20
Yes, sir.
21 BY
MR. DUBEAU:
22
It's not a scare tactic, and I'm tired of
23
hearing about what the newspapers are saying.
24 BY
MR. JOHNSON:
25
The first thing I would like to say to you is
00048
01
good evening, everybody. I'm the
son of David C.
02
Johnson, and I'd like to tell you all the contacts
03
that I've had with these bombs or whatever it is these
04
things are.
05
Back in my early years, well, since I'm the
06
oldest boy, I had to quit school and go to work, so I
07
went to work for mother. I was a
little bitty boy
08
sitting up on a big whole tractor driving a tractor.
09
If you come down Pine Street over to your left,
10 I
had -- in plowing up a field that was a wheat field,
11 I
have plowed up many little beds of these little
12
things with the little knots and they'll shape off
13
with the little pins back there.
14
Well, they would call somebody from somewhere,
15
then they would come and shoot these things out there
16 in
the field.
17
Now you all are saying, well, early '70s, back
18 in
the '70s. Well, my early years I had to
form a
19
band to help mama raise the rest of them, and I also
20
worked, too, so we had a booking in Alabama. Well,
21
our guy said, "Well, I'm not going to Alabama. I
22
don't want to get bombed."
Okay. That was one
23
Thursday night.
24
Sunday morning my grandmother was cooking
25
breakfast and the stove -- the flume, something caught
00049
01
fire there. Well, we got the
house put out. Now this
02 is
near the Camp Croft area. Well, while I
was up in
03
the attic, I said, "Well, I've never been up in the
04
attic," and I had did my room.
I had put this ceil
05
tex. I had beat up there,
everything, but -- with a
06
hammer, nails and everything.
07
Well, I said, "Well, I just look out in the
08
attic to see what can I find.
You know, I lived in
09
the old house, and I had no" -- and believe it or not,
10
right over my head, right where my bed laid, when I
11
got in this corner, there was five more of those bombs
12 up
in the attic in this little house that we had moved
13 in.
14
Three of them was alive. They
called a bomb
15
squad from Maysville. They were
scared to test them,
16 so
they finally got some bomb squad out of Georgia,
17
and they come taking these things, and this was back
18 in
like the '70s, somewhere back there, but -- and --
19
but, see, these bombs are everywhere.
You don't know
20
where they're at.
21
And on top of that, if five bombs was took --
22
taken to the field to be shot, whoever was in charge
23 of
this should have had known where these bombs was,
24
because now like the Cola company, now that's been
25
filled up. That's been leveled
off. These things
00050
01
could be ten foot under the ground.
It could --
02
there's got to be some more of them out there.
03
And then last but not least, we was talking to
04
some Army people in the plant there, so I was telling
05
about this fatality here. So
they said, "Well, did
06
they give you all anything?"
07
I said, "No, they didn't give us anything," and
08
here we all sitting here taxpayers, pay tax, all of us
09
work, so they give me a number to call, so I called
10
the number. I forgot who it
was. At that time it
11
didn't really matter too much.
12
They told me, "Well, if
you had been Japanese,
13
well, you would have been entitled to something," but
14
here's a woman here, I saw my mother standing out on
15
boards. It was too cold for her
to wash, and she was
16
standing on boards and washed for a dollar a day, and
17 we
would go back the next day and iron those clothes
18
for a dollar, and then these people have got the nerve
19 to
tell us if we were Japanese -- we don't look like
20
Japanese, but we're all taxpayers.
21
We're not beggars, and we're not homeless, and
22
but we're -- my part -- well, we just want to be
23
recognized, and I thank the gentleman for calling us
24
and that make us feel a little bit better, but every
25
Father's Day I don't have no father to go to.
00051
01
If it had never been for H.C. Whitten and Dr.
02
Gault and a few other of those men around town, I
03
wouldn't have had a father, but I imagine I wouldn't
04
have been what I am today. Those
people are the ones
05
that made me, and then we were living and raised here
06
and worked all of our lives, and then they tell us,
07
"If you were Japanese."
Well, we're not Japanese. My
08
father wasn't no Japanese.
09 BY
MR. BOGAN:
10
Thank you, sir. Again, I want to
thank all of
11
you for coming tonight that you're here. I'm sorry it
12
was your father that was killed, and I wish that
13
nobody had ever gotten killed, and that's kind of what
14
we're trying to prevent now -- not kind of, that is
15
what we're trying to prevent.
16
The only reason we're here is because we know
17
that ordnance is dangerous. We
know these bombs are
18
dangerous, and that's why we're spending millions of
19
dollars to clean it up.
20
We've asked the Board to come together and give
21 us
some input from the public, as you and your family
22
and anyone else who wants to come and give us input.
23 We
appreciate your being here and helping out, and I'm
24 going
to try to work with anybody I can to find out
25
anything about the Camp.
00052
01 BY
MR. JOHNSON:
02
Well, these things are everywhere.
03 BY
MR. BOGAN:
04
All right. As I said, we're
looking at -- what
05
I'm going to address in my presentation are some of
06
the areas that we have found.
You missed some of my
07
presentation before where we -- I've showed some of
08
those areas, and I'm going to show some more they've
09
found recently.
10
Anybody knows of anything, you know of any
11
family members or friends who know where it's buried
12 or
where it might be dumped, let us know so that we
13
can look at it. That's what we
want to do.
14
Again, thank you for being here.
I appreciate
15
your talking with us.
16
A couple of issues I want to cover just real
17
quickly before I start on my presentation on the
18
Supplemental Archive Search Report.
19
First, one of the questions that came up in the
20 last
meeting was about the National Guard and Reserve
21
Units doing work on this project.
22
I've gotten some clarification on that.
I
23
talked this morning with a Sergeant of Alabama, who is
24
kind of heading up the National Guard troops that
25
would be able to do some of this type of work and
00053
01
would be able to come in.
02
Okay. It is possible to bring in
National Guard
03
troops to do this type of work.
However, the annual
04
training times, the two when National Guard does all
05
their training, period is already set for the Fiscal
06
Year '96, which goes through September 30th.
07
So I've asked them to see what we can do and sit
08
down with me and schedule stuff for '97, '98 and '99.
09
Anytime you want to bring the National Guard in to
10
help with the cleanup, it's at a much less cost
11
compared to bringing in a contractor.
They have 60
12
people that they can bring in.
That's all the
13
National Guard soldiers that are available to do this
14
type of work. They have 8 Ad
men, that gives you
15
about 68 people total. Ad men
meaning administration
16
staff.
17 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
18
Is this thing serious enough to maybe change
19
their training schedules?
20 BY
MR. BOGAN:
21
Sir, you would have to go through the National
22
Guard Bureau in Washington to do that.
Right now
23
they're already scheduled to do -- to do cleanup on a
24
site for us in Utah, as I found out from them today.
25
The problem that you run into is all of these
00054
01
soldiers have a 9:00 to 5:00 job or a regular job that
02
they do all year long. They do
it on the weekends,
03
and then just once a year they go up there two weeks.
04
Trying to get them to turn around right now and
05
come in here in May or come in right now and start
06
working on this messes up their plan and it also --
07
they have to do their regular jobs and get their
08
employers to let them go at a different time.
09
What we're going to try to do to help out with
10
that is that they -- he recommended to us that
11
something they will do is bring in two or three
12
soldiers at a time.
13
When we find an area that we need to have
14
sampled to see if anything is there, then they're
15
willing to send somebody for a week or two here and
16
there, in addition to the normal annual training, to
17
come in and sample these sites.
18
So at least through September, we're probably
19
not going to be able to get the National Guard units
20 in
here. We might able to in Fiscal Year
'97,
21
depending on when they can schedule their annual
22
training.
23 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
24
What about the regular Army? We
sent a whole
25
bunch over to clean up ammunition and so forth in
00055
01
Bosnia, and I understood that they're sort of rotating
02
them back now and sending others over.
Is there any
03
chance we can use regular Army troops to do it.
04 BY
MR. BOGAN:
05
Not that I know of at the moment.
I'll double
06
check with that. When I asked --
when I sent a letter
07 to
Huntsville regarding contact with the National
08
Guard.
09 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
10 Does that include the Reserves, too, or
just the
11
Guard?
12 BY
MR. BOGAN:
13
I sent a letter regarding Reserves and one was
14
sent regarding National Guard, so I don't know if the
15
Reserves are included in there.
16
The Sergeant that I'm dealing with coordinates
17
for all the units that do this in trying to do some of
18
that work. So it's possible to
bring them in, but I
19
don't know that they're going to be able to change
20
their schedules and the other thing is getting here
21
quick enough to start on some of the work.
22
We might be able to use them on a recurring
23
basis as we do find things from the samplings. It
24
would greatly speed up having somebody on the site. It
25 would
cut a lot of costs and give them some gut
00056
01
training.
02
I think I've already mentioned this.
I'll
03
mention it again. The Deputy --
Deputy Assistant
04
Secretary of the Army has joined the funding mechanism
05 in
each of these projects.
06
When the actual memorandum was signed in the
07
Senate to our headquarters, it was then passed on to
08
their Secretary of the Army's office for final
09
approval on this project. That
was one, Ms. Fretwell,
10 you
had in one of your questions last month that you
11
wanted to know who to specifically contact with
12
questions related funding provided.
13
Again, an Congressional interest, there is a
14
lot, especially since a letter has gone out. It
15
greatly keeps me busy having to answer questions from
16
the Congressmen, but I'd rather it be busy and get
17
something done than not doing anything.
I appreciate
18
that.
19
I just quickly about the Work Armament Research
20
Associates and the meeting Friday night, I really,
21
other than talking to them on the phone several months
22
back about some of the work they were doing and
23
getting our press release that went out in the
24
Spartanburg paper saying that they were not associated
25
with us, we haven't had much dealings with them other
00057
01
than we know they have some information they said it
02
was different from ours.
03
We've asked them informally, and if you know
04
where something is that's dangerous, we want to get
05
rid of it. Please tell us. They don't want to tell
06
us, so I'm going to write a letter to them requesting
07
that information. I don't have
-- I can't force them
08 to
give me that information, but if anybody has
09
information, like I said, let us know so we can go and
10
find what's there.
11 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
12
Who exploded the four shells that were there
13
last week?
14 BY
MR. BOGAN:
15
That was the next thing I was coming to. The
16
agency that exploded those shells last week was the
17
State Law Enforcement Division, SLED, out of Columbia.
18
I've got a name of the officer who was in charge
19 of
that, and I've hadn't had a chance to talk with him
20
yet, and I wanted to talk with him to see if they
21
actually had doctored rounds or it was an old mortar
22
that hadn't been on the surface and was dug up and get
23
their professional opinion of what was it they got rid
24
of.
25 BY
MR. HAYES:
00058
01
They wouldn't tell you where they found them?
02 BY
MR. BOGAN:
03
I know it's off of Henningston Road.
I just
04
haven't talked to anybody.
05 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
06
They said it was on Henningston Road.
07 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
08
About 10 feet off the road itself.
09 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
10
Yeah, about 10 feet off the road.
11 BY
DR. LOWRY:
12
That was the one about Thursday night.
They had
13
the bomb squad up on my land also.
14 BY
MR. BOGAN:
15
And Dr. Lowry told me about finding the 105 on
16
his land also. If anybody finds
anything, what I've
17
requested is the Sheriff's Department and SLED is that
18
they let me know anytime they find something so that I
19
can plot their new findings on the map so we'll have a
20
better idea of what's been done.
21 BY
MR. DUBEAU:
22
Mr. Bogan, I want to ask you something.
If
23
these people are so interested in wanting to clear a
24
lot of this -- this problem that is still existing,
25
there's been a great amount of money spent already
00059
01
with the Engineers; am I correct?
02 BY
MR. BOGAN:
03
Yes, sir.
04 BY
MR. DUBEAU:
05
Now these men are supposed to know what they're
06
doing. Now they're not going to
come out here free,
07
and I don't think you ought to expect that or the
08
Army. They've got a business
like anybody else,
09
anybody in here that owns a business.
And an offer
10
should be made or something. If
they know what
11
they're doing, hell, let them in here.
12 BY
MR. BOGAN:
13
Sir, as soon as they send in the paperwork,
14
we'll ---
15 BY
MR. DUBEAU:
16
Well, I mean, hell, I know, but let's use a
17
little common sense in this deal.
I've been to three
18
meetings, and all the money that's been spent, there's
19 no
-- there's nobody showing anything. If
you argue
20
about something, hell, they don't want to hear you. I
21
think it's time to get a hold of this thing and get it
22
cleared.
23 BY
MR. BOGAN:
24
Well, hopefully, in my presentation tonight, in
25
other words, you'll see some of the stuff that we've
00060
01
looked at.
02 BY
MR. DUBEAU:
03
Let me out.
04 BY
MR. BOGAN:
05
I can't go -- if somebody goes out and has that
06
business, I can't go every place and force them to
07
give me the information. At the
same point, it's part
08 of
the government regulations, the laws are written
09
and I have no control over -- I can't go in and
10
provide somebody with information that they've went
11
and researched themselves not having a contract for
12
them.
13 BY
MR. RUSSELL SMITH:
14
Has anybody checked to see how big that World
15
Armament is? I talked to a guy,
and he said they
16
can't do any of the work because they don't have
17
insurance to do the clearing.
18 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
19
They don't have any what?
20 BY
MR. RUSSELL SMITH:
21
Insurance.
22 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
23
That's the reason they're not bidding on this
24
job.
25 BY
MR. RUSSELL SMITH:
00061
01
That's right, exactly right.
02 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
03
They made the point at the meeting Friday night
04
that they were not wanting to bid on it, that they
05
would be available as sub-contractors, and that was
06
the extent of it.
07 BY
MR. RUSSELL SMITH:
08
Now one of them told me they didn't have
09
insurance available through the commission. That's
10
what he told me.
11 BY
MR. BOGAN:
12
I don't know how large organization, but we know
13
that there's at least three members.
If they want to
14
work on contract -- contractor -- all they've got to
15 do
is submit the paperwork, and I'm going to put out
16
the project for a bid, and they can bid on the project
17
with the other contractors. They
don't have other
18
insurance or other requirements, then the contractor
19 in
the office won't hire them.
20 BY
MR. HAYES:
21
Has he been given permission to enter
22
Henningston Road to search for what they said they
23
found?
24 BY
MR. BOGAN:
25
I haven't talked to the landowner there.
00062
01 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
02
They said they went to the landowner.
There are
03
four or five landowners down that road, and they
04
mentioned several that they had permission from to go
05 on
their property.
06 BY
MR. BOGAN:
07 That's something I mentioned in one of
the
08
previous meetings. If the
landowner wants to bring
09
somebody else in to clean the property prior to us
10
coming in, they're welcome to do that.
It's their
11
property, and they can do what they want to.
12 BY
MR. HAYES:
13
So that was private property? It
wasn't the
14
State Park?
15 BY
MR. PERRY:
16
No, it's private.
17 BY
MR. BOGAN:
18
It was private property.
19 BY
MR. PERRY:
20
Right.
21 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
22
Now they said they have not been in the State
23
Park.
24 BY
MR. BOGAN:
25
At the same time, the landowners can tell us
00063
01
that they don't want us on their property. In which
02
case, the only thing we can do is tell them, send them
03 a
letter saying it would be prudent for you to let us
04
on. However, be cautious that
you're assuming some
05 of
the liability by not letting us on the property.
06 BY
DR. LOWRY:
07
If you let somebody on your property that
08
doesn't have insurance and they get blown up, I
09
believe you would be held liable by someone in that
10
family.
11 BY
MR. BOGAN:
12
And we're coming out, and if people will let us
13
work on their property, we'll -- we know where it is
14 or
somebody can show where it is, then we can come in
15
and clean it up.
16
If they don't let us on, or as you'll see in
17
some the areas we dig down on some of the property, we
18
can't do anything with it. And
if we are given the
19
right of entry, as I mentioned before, to a particular
20
landowner, they want us to leave that day, then we
21
have to pack up and leave.
22 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
23
When we get into the session on Friday, if we
24
do, Sanford, remind me to talk about Aberdeen, because
25
they brought Aberdeen up Friday night.
00064
01 BY
MR. BOGAN:
02
Okay. All right. Essentially, I'm going to
03
give you a quick briefing on tonight is the additional
04
research that's been done. This
is a recorded
05
historical documents. It's
called the Supplemental
06
Archive Search Report. This is
Volume I, which has a
07
lot of historical information.
08
I mentioned to you once before the -- you can
09
pass that around if you want to.
I mentioned that we
10
had crews out last September, October and November
11
searching some of the sites, and this is a result of
12
that. I'm getting copies sent to
me. This is the
13
only one that I've got, only complete copy I have at
14
the moment. I'm requesting
another copy to be sent to
15
me, and I'm going to place it in the library as soon
16 as
I get it, so if anybody wants to look at that.
17
This engineering report, which is the Supplement
18
Archive Search Report, it simply shows a picture and a
19
sketch of every piece of property that we had access
20
to, they went to and tells what they found.
21
Now this in addition to the original Archive
22
Search Report, and this was the original Archive
23
Search Report which, until recently, was in the
24
library about, I'd say, about three or four months
25
ago. Somebody stole a copy out
of there, so this is a
00065
01 copy I'm taking to replace that, and it will stay in
02
there. They're going to get a
little bit more control
03 on
them.
04
Okay. I've handed out to the
Board members a
05
couple of copies of the reports or what I'm going to
06
talk on tonight.
07
First, you have slides that I've given you.
08
Essentially, pre-slides that people have summarized,
09
and then out of the engineering report for each of the
10
sites and visits, I've essentially given you the
11
executive summary of what was there.
12
The second piece I've given you is the Tables
13
out of the engineering report that shows each of the
14
sites, which ones are high priority, medium priority
15
and low priorities. The
executive summary explains
16
what the different priorities are, and I'll look at
17
those right quick, and it shows you where we got some
18 of
the information from, what we were expecting to
19
find at different sites, and I'll try to explain what
20 we
did find and what we did not find.
21
Now the table -- or there's one more piece of
22
information. Excuse me. I also gave you a complete
23
article. This was something that
was out of an
24
Environmental Update, which is a newsletter that goes
25
through the Army, and there was this article in there
00066
01
about new technology for finding ordnance. I got that
02
for your information.
03
Only two things. I'm going to
put some slides
04 to
try and give you a larger picture of the areas that
05
I'm talking about, and I'll also point to them on the
06
map, and you're welcome to come up afterwards and look
07 at
the map, and I'll answer any questions that I can
08
related to these two different areas.
09
Let's see if I can do this without losing all of
10 my
slides.
11
And all those that don't know me, my name is
12
Wayne Bogan. I'm the project
manager for the U.S.
13
Army Corps of Engineers. My job
is to come in and to
14 manage
the cleanup of all the ordnance activities that
15 is
going to take place in this project.
16
One of the questions that someone wanted me to
17
clarify was that someone thought I was going to get
18
rich on this project. Let me
assure you that I get
19
paid one salary and that's all I get paid, and quite
20
often I'm working a lot of extra hours that I don't
21
even get paid for working on this project, unlike the
22
contractors who get paid on the -- for however much
23
work they do. I get paid certain
amount by hour and
24
that's it.
25
In the Supplemental Archive Search Report, what
00067
01
they did is, in addition to the initial Archive Search
02
Report, they came in and did some more historical
03
research.
04
Once it gets in the library, you're able to go
05
through and it actually lists in the National Archives
06 in
Washington D.C., College of Maryland -- College
07
Park, Maryland; East Point, Georgia; the State Museum
08 in
Columbia and the County Library here, the
09
information that they went in and tried to find, where
10
boxes were located and that type of stuff, so that if
11
anybody wants to come back in, it makes it easier for
12
them to find some of that information also.
13
We went through and tried to find some
14
additional information than what we had in there, such
15 as
a chemical site that was found on the site and
16
anything else related to how -- the thing you have to
17 be
careful about with these Archive Search Reports is
18
that it does not include every piece of historical
19
information that was found on Camp Croft. It only
20
includes historical information that relates to what
21
might help us find the ordnance.
22
They essentially did three things when they were
23
doing this Supplemental Archive Search Report. They
24
conducted interviews with local residents in August of
25
1995.
00068
01
All right. And you'll see it on
the map that
02
we've got all these little yellow circles all over the
03
top of the map. Everytime
somebody came in and said,
04
"We think something was here," we place a circle on
05
the map, and if we could get access to that property,
06 we
went and looked at that.
07
They went in from these interviews and looked at
08
any of the areas we had a Right of Entry. The other
09 is
one that I've mentioned before is the computer
10
analysis. They took the 1944
aerial photos and said,
11
"Okay. Where do you think
ordnance might be," and the
12
computer gave it those and we've got all these red
13
circles all over the map. I'll
address the
14
combination of those two when we get into those.
15
The site work was divided into three elements.
16 I
mentioned the interviews, computer mapping.
There
17
were two areas that they found in this historical
18
documentation. One is called
Danger Area 1 and Danger
19
Area 2, and that's exactly what it's referenced to in
20
the historical information.
21
The Archive Search Report has plots from the
22
deeds of those areas, and we've plotted those on the
23
map to show where those two are.
I haven't read every
24
bit of the information, but essentially it's an area
25
that was not cleared the way it should have been, so
00069
01 we
really expect there to be ordnance on those sites
02 as
we go in and look.
03
Essentially on the map you see all these little
04
yellow pieces of paper. These
are the areas that
05
are going to be the high priority that I'm going to
06
talk about tonight.
07
Danger Area 1 was here -- excuse me -- 2 was
08
here and Danger Area 1 was here, so we are finding
09
ordnance that's located right next to those areas or
10
around those areas.
11 BY
MR. ROBERT MCBAIN:
12
What type of ordnance? Can I ask
here?
13 BY
MR. BOGAN:
14
Yes, sir, we're finding a combination of small
15
arms. We're finding 60
millimeter, 81 millimeter,
16
mortar rounds and a fragmentation left over from a lot
17 of
fins, and I'll try and quickly address the piece of
18
sites that I'll point on the map, I've got them
19
listed, and I'll tell you what they found in each one
20 of
those areas and how many they found in each area.
21
I mentioned the divided areas that were looked
22 in
after they had gone through and done all the site
23
visits that they could, divide them into high, medium
24 and
low priorities and the sites that we didn't
25
request further searching on.
00070
01
They looked at essentially 134 areas.
Of those
02
134, 88 required further reconnaissance. 27 are high
03
priority, 29 are medium priority and 32 were low.
04
High priority sites, what we're going to talk
05
about tonight, or where they either found live
06
fragments of ordnance here on the site, abundant or
07
large magnetic anomalies.
08
In other words, walking along with the metal
09
detector, and they get a large number of beeps from a
10
metal detector, which leads them to believe that there
11 is
something buried there under the ground.
12
Documentation such as in Danger Area 1 and 2,
13
high population use, along with ordnance in the area.
14
All those pieces of information provide a high
15
priority area.
16
Medium priority are the sites that cannot be
17
completely investigated, either because we couldn't
18
get a right of entry from a landowner or we couldn't
19
get one back quick enough while the team was out.
20
Scattered or deep magnetic anomalies which we
21
might have found one on this side.
There could be
22
another one on the other side.
It would have a
23
medium priority. All right. And some population
24
exists on the site.
25
Low priority. They didn't find
any evidence of
00071
01
the actual fins or the mortar rounds or anything.
02
Only a few scatter magnetic anomalies with the
03
magnetometer, the metal detector.
They found, again,
04
one here and there.
05
All right. The site could not be completely
06
investigated, but there's still historical information
07
that leads us to believe there is something might be
08
there.
09
All of these 88 sites were recommended for the
10
next engineering evaluation. We
just finished the one
11
that I presented to you at the last meeting. We're
12
going to another one -- and we expect to get that one
13
started up in the fall where they'll come in in these
14
areas, these 88 areas, and they hit the high
15
priorities first, hopefully, and then go in, depending
16 on
the crews and how they get it set up -- they'll get
17
all 88 of these areas and sample those areas for any
18
ordnance contamination.
19
If there's contamination there, we'll do, as in
20
this last engineering report, recommends the cleanup
21
alternatives for those areas.
22
A bunch of these 27 will seem to overlap with
23
each other, but I'm going to ahead and address each
24
one separate.
25
Essentially, from the report, this is the way
00072
01
they describe and they have it laid out high priority,
02
and it has the sites listed, medium, low and the ones
03
that required no further work.
04
All right. I know this is a
little hard to
05
read, and I apologize, but I'll try my best to point
06
out everything to you.
07
Looking at this map, you've got the main park,
08
State Park Road coming down.
This is from the
09
engineering evaluation in Area 7 that we talked about.
10
The campground is here, campground over there, and the
11
ranger station.
12
We have reports from Number 3 and Number 8A with
13
yellow circles that there was something located in
14
these areas. They came back and
found in Number 3, a
15 60
millimeter tail fin. In Number 8A, they
didn't
16
find anything, but we know this -- again, we have in
17
Area 7 where we know we're going to clean up.
18
A38, anytime you see an A in the number, it
19
comes from the computer analysis.
It showed the
20
hilltop here and you'll be able to see it better on
21
the map. It shows a red circle
on the hilltop. We
22
already know that that site is contaminated, so we
23
have to overlap those three areas.
24
The next set of areas -- again, I'm not going
25
straight down the list where you have it there. I'm
00073
01 just
going by where they are on the map.
02
Notice we have Pacolet up here.
Here's the --
03
what was the former facility boundary.
Highway 176
04
and Highway 176 here. On this
Area Number 18, they
05
went and had a reported incident there was something
06
there. They didn't find -- find any live ordnance, but
07
they found a bunch of magnetometer readings and
08
recommended further sampling in that area.
09
One of the things that I wanted to mention is
10
each of these areas that we've identified of those 88,
11
I've asked my real estate office to provide me a list
12
for -- say, for Area 18, Area 82, which is down here.
13
The real estate office is going to tell me whoever
14
owns that piece of property, and I'm going to try to
15
send a letter to them explaining what we found and
16
what we expect to do.
17
The areas that we've got here, a lot of them
18
we've already got a right of entry from the landowner,
19 so
they know that we've been there before and
20
hopefully the crew was there and told them what we
21
found. And if they didn't, I'm
going to try and let
22
them know in writing.
23
Again, it's going to take me a little while,
24
because there's 88 sites, and I may write something
25
around 40 to 50 letters.
00074
01
In addition to Area 18, right here, Number 82
02
and 81 -- and 81 and 82 -- need
to put that back up
03 --
I think they just found fins and mortars on those
04
two. I didn't xerox that copy of
that report.
05
Then I'm at A60 right here. This
is from the
06
computer mapping, and they determined that there was a
07
large number of anomalies from those three areas, and
08 so
we'll come in and recommend those, and that's
09
adjacent to 00U6, Area 6 in the EE/CA report that was
10 in
this area.
11
Here we have Henningston Road.
There's 295
12
that's up on this end, which is one down through White
13
Stone, and down at the end of Henningston, this is
14
what we refer to as Area 2 already in the EE/CA.
15
Inside of Area 2 they did some additional sampling or
16
checking.
17
A28 was in the computer, and they found some
18
fragmentation and shrapnel. We
knew that this area
19
was -- already had exploded mortar rounds just laying
20
around on top of surface anyway.
21
In Area 22, they found, again, mortar fins,
22
fragmentation.
23
Number 75, the found mortar fins and
24
fragmentation.
25 On Number 86 here, which was away from the
00075
01
property, they didn't find any live ordnance on the
02
surface, but they did find a lot of magnetometer
03
readings, so they recommended to further look in those
04
areas.
05
Okay. One I wanted to mention is
Number 33
06
here. They didn't actually have
a right of entry to
07 go
to that property, but based on some other
08
information, they saw the site.
They just drove by
09
and did what they call a windshield survey from the
10
car, just went off the side and took some pictures and
11
recommended that, since we know there's ordnance in
12
these areas, there's potential that there is ordnance
13 on
this site and recommended further sampling.
14
Okay. Again, here is the 295 or the top portion
15 of
the Henningston Road. We were just
looking at this
16
area down here. We're looking
back up at this area
17
here, residents -- residential area.
18
We have A33 located in this area.
They found in
19
the magnetometer readings no live ordnance.
20
74, they found a 2.36 inch rocket at this site.
21
36, another 2.36 inch rocket.
22
56, they found a rifle grenade.
23
68, magnetometer readings.
24
A30, referring back to these sites, since this
25 is
adjacent to those. You can't see well
it on the
00076
01
map, but this is also Danger Area 1 identified in that
02
historical research in this area off of Dairy Ridge,
03
295 and Henningston.
04 BY
MR. CLARY SMITH:
05
The houses you're showing up there, that must be
06
where Patch Drive is?
07 BY
MR. BOGAN:
08
I would think so. This should be
off of Dairy
09
Ridge, yes, sir, and that should be -- yeah, that's
10
Patch Drive right there.
11 BY
MR. MCBAIN:
12
Patch Drive is at A33, isn't it?
13 BY
MR. CLARY SMITH:
14
Right.
15 BY
MR. MCBAIN:
16
That's the area where they put the circular tire
17
and the old swimming pool, right?
18 BY
MR. CLARY SMITH:
19
That's Patch Drive.
20 BY
MR. MCBAIN:
21
I know who owns that.
22 BY
MR. BOGAN:
23
Here is the School for the Deaf and Blind.
24
Highway 56 runs up and there's a side road here, and
25
Area 32, which is on that back side and there's a
00077
01
residential here. They found no
high ordnance, but
02
they did hit some metal detector readings.
03
Number 50 is right here. This
the Dairy Ridge
04
Road. It comes out 56 and come
up and the Number 50,
05
they didn't find any live ordnance on the ground.
06
They found a hit on the magnetometer or the metal
07
detector readings and recommended further ---
08 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
09
Is that in the vicinity of the forestry?
10 BY
MR. BOGAN:
11
Just to the south of the forestry just in that
12
area. It's hard to tell from
here. Those are the
13
high priority areas that we hit.
14
Those areas where we think that there is a high
15
probability that there's ordnance located on the
16
surface. In some cases they
found live ordnance or
17
parts of it on top of the surface, and other cases all
18
we've gotten is the magnetometer readings, and they
19
still recommended we go in and do further cleanup of
20
these areas.
21
Any question on high priority?
22
(NO RESPONSE)
23 BY
MR. BOGAN:
24
What I hope to do next month is cover quickly
25
the medium and the low priority sites and show those
00078
01 to
you. I don't want to go too detail
tonight and go
02
piece after piece, and hopefully by that point you
03
will have a chance to go to the library and see the
04
actual Archive Search Report and engineering in the
05
library and look at the colored pictures and a much
06
better map of where all this is located.
07 BY
DR. LOWRY:
08
What is the little pieces of paper?
09 BY
MR. BOGAN:
10
The little pieces of paper were just a way for
11 me
to point out quickly, if somebody came up to me,
12
and they ask me where was site number, for example,
13
site A33, and it's easier for me to find, and it also
14
helps show you where we find regarding the
15
contamination is right here next to Henningston Road
16
and right off Dairy Ridge right here.
This is more in
17
Area 7.
18 BY
DR. LOWRY:
19
This is new areas?
20 BY
MR. BOGAN:
21
This is all new areas. Now some
of them do
22
overlap. Like this one overlaps
Area 7. This
23
overlaps Area 2 that we're already looking at.
24 BY
MR. PERRY:
25
How many people did not give you the right of
00079
01
way?
02 BY
MR. BOGAN:
03
I want to say five landowners did not give us
04
right of entry, and I don't know -- if you'll go
05
through the report, you'll see that probably 15 or 20
06
sites we weren't able to look at and there was no
07
right of entry.
08
There are a couple of sites we didn't look at,
09
excuse me, because the historical documentation
10
doesn't show anything, and it's showing -- and I think
11 a
couple of those are way off on the side somewhere
12
where we don't think there is anything buried.
13
There was a report way down here on the southern
14
end of the chemical viles, and the guys went out and
15
looked and walked in the area and never found
16
anything.
17 BY
MR. HAYES:
18
Which area? Whereabouts in this
area?
19 BY
MR. BOGAN:
20
It's a just off of Highway 150 way down to the
21
side.
22 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
23
Is that up close to White Stone Springs and
24
Mount Lebanon Cemetery?
25 BY
MR. HAYES:
00080
01
That wouldn't be 150.
02 BY
MR. BOGAN:
03
The closest thing I can see is I think Shiloh
04
Church.
05 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
06
Okay, and Bird Pond.
07 BY
MR. BOGAN:
08
Bird Pond is over here. Shiloh
Church is right
09
here and this is right in between the two.
10 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
11
Is that where we said sometimes they were
12
shooting back into the Camp?
13 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
14
That and then they had a lot of maneuvers down
15 in
the Bird Pond area. There was -- there
was just a
16 lot
of debris lost and thrown in there.
17 BY
MR. BOGAN:
18
I've had people tell me they found buttons and
19
other things down there but no ordnance at this point.
20
Yes, sir.
21 BY
MR. JOHNSON:
22
I live on White Stone and Glendale Road. You
23
all -- I don't know whether the bullets and things
24
were, but you all are perfectly welcome there. I
25
mean, if you think there was bullets.
I'm just at the
00081
01
edge of the drill field there, and you all are
02
perfectly welcome if you think something you can find,
03
you are more than welcome to come look.
04 BY
MR. BOGAN:
05
I appreciate it, and if you'll, before you
06
leave, if you write down your address and phone number
07
and get it to me, and if we find anything that makes
08 us
think that you got something there, we'll probably
09
send you a document asking you to let us go on your
10
property.
11 BY
MR. JOHNSON:
12
Well, sir, I'm telling you right now you're
13
welcome to come. I work day and
night.
14 BY
MR. BOGAN:
15
When you get all those right of entries when we
16
send them to you, it scares a lot of people because
17
it's a big form that says, we -- it allows the
18
government to do just about anything on your property.
19
If you don't like something in the right of
20
entry, mark through it, make changes the way you want
21
it, send it back in, we'll retype it and send it to
22
you and sign it the way you want it.
23
If you want us only to be on there for 30 days,
24 10
days, which doesn't do us much good, but the
25
landowner down at this site agreed we could be on the
00082
01
property for 30 days, and I went to her house and she
02 signed
it all, and we looked. We didn't find
03
anything. I called her and said
we didn't find
04
anything.
05 BY
MR. JOHNSON:
06
Anything that belongs to you, you're welcome to
07
it.
08 BY
DR. KEITH:
09
When you go and get refused and somebody won't
10
let you come on to the property, what -- not being
11
inconsiderate -- what's the main reason? Even if you
12
were on the property and you found something, you're
13
not going to pull down or bull doze the whole property
14
down. What -- what main reason
that they don't want
15
you on there?
16 BY
MR. BOGAN:
17
A lot of times I'm not the one dealing with the
18
property owners trying to get the right of entry. Our
19
real estate -- I've heard that there's gold buried on
20
the property, and they don't want us to come down and
21
digging it up.
22 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
23
I was going to ask about the gold mine.
24 BY
DR. KEITH:
25
I was just wondering if they had a still down
00083
01
there?
02 BY
MR. JOHNSON:
03
I think one of the reasons is, well, like
04
they've told me, if someone walked across the yard,
05
even if I had given them permission, if I plant a
06
flower and I laid a hoe down, and they -- I have to
07
run in the house to answer the telephone, somebody
08
comes by and falls over and breaks their leg, then I
09
can be sued. That's what the
Farm Administration told
10 me
that.
11 BY
MR. BOGAN:
12
Okay.
13 BY
MR. JOHNSON:
14
I had to get insurance before I did any work at
15
all on a piece of property right after I got it.
16 BY
MR. BOGAN:
17
Right. Our contractors already
have their own
18
insurance policy when they walk on those sites to
19
cover if something happens, and they get covered under
20
workman's compensation and government regulations for
21
that.
22 BY
MR. JOHNSON:
23
Thank you.
24 BY
MR. BOGAN:
25
I'm just saying, sir, the answer to that, we
00084
01
have that. Some other people
don't want us on there
02
because of the hunting seasons.
We could be outside
03
deer season but not there during deer season and other
04
people just don't trust the government.
So if they
05
don't us there, then we go on their property.
06
Yes, sir.
07 BY
MR. MCBAIN:
08
What was said was a lot of people don't know
09
what the magnitude is. The basic
regular camp is some
10
19,000 acres. What percent of that
now is the
11
property of the State of South Carolina as opposed to
12
being in private hands?
13 BY
MR. BOGAN:
14
Of the original 19,000, right around there,
15
7,088 is State Park property.
The other close to
16
12,000 is private property or commercial property.
17 BY
MR. MCBAIN:
18
Is this all that was distributed through the War
19
Access Act of '44?
20 BY
MR. BOGAN:
21
Yes, sir, through that Act and through the, if I
22
remember the name of it, the Farmers' Trade
23
Administration, or there was an administration that
24
was set up that dealt with it, and if you look through
25
some of the deeds and the Supplemental Archive Search
00085
01
Report, it labels the companies.
02
Yes, sir.
03 BY
MR. RUSSELL SMITH:
04
Didn't we county have a foundation on the Camp
05 at
one time? I'm pretty sure they did.
06 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
07
The foundation bought it for a Million Dollars
08 --
a $1.5 Million -- $40,000 -- $1,040,000 is what
09
they bought it for.
10 BY
MR. RUSSELL SMITH:
11
But that was all the cantonment area and all
12
along the adjacent roads?
13 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
14
They sold it -- they sold the State -- they sold
15
the State the 7,000 for $40,000 worth, I believe.
16 BY
MR. HENDERSON:
17
$35,000.
18 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
19
$35,000 and the rest of it has been subdivided,
20 as
you know.
21 BY
MR. BOGAN:
22
Okay. No questions on this. There's one other
23
thing that I did want to point out is another site on
24
high priority. I was going to
mention this earlier.
25
A recommendation during the tour site the other
00086
01
day was that we go out and put more signs up, some
02
permanent signs. While
essentially there are no signs
03
that have been developed for this type of work for
04
Danger, Do Not Enter, Potential Ordnance in This Area,
05
other than the ones that the normal impact ranges
06 would
have around them that's an active post, so this
07 is
an example of a sign that I've designed.
08
It's going to be a white background.
It's going
09 to
have in red up at the top "Danger" with white
10
letters. I'm getting this developed
by the company.
11
We're going to have Do Not Enter and that kind of
12
information. There's another one
that says, "Danger,"
13
and it has Explosive, a symbol for explosive and it
14
has the word "Explosive" on the side so that we can
15
use them on some of these sites.
16
Okay. I'm work with the Park to
see what is
17
acceptable in different areas that they want to put
18
up, and then we'll order some of these signs. I've
19
already gone through getting prices and ordering parts
20 of
it to put in any of the areas that we find
21
something to warn people to stay out.
22
The signs will be approximately 9 1/2 by 13
23
inches, metal or we'll use some plastic, I guess, to
24
tighten them or something to attach them around the
25
trees, so we won't have to nail them all to the trees.
00087
01
You can order this and once I get this set up
02
with the company, I can tell you, it's Lab Safety that
03
I'm getting these from. The
signs are about -- well,
04
this one is going to cost about $33 a sign to get
05
these, just because I had them design it. The other
06
one they already have designed, and one says,
07
"Danger," and the explosive symbol with the word
08
"Explosive" is about $15 or $16 per sign.
09 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
10
What's the cooperation with the State Park?
11 BY
MR. BOGAN:
12
As in?
13 BY
MR. PERRY:
14
Do what now?
15 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
16
What is the cooperation with the State?
17 BY
MR. PERRY:
18
We've been putting up the signs up that have
19
been supplied to us. As far as
that one, that will
20
have to be decided by our central office.
21 BY
MR. BOGAN:
22
Right.
23 BY
MR. PERRY:
24
Because I haven't seen that.
25 BY
MR. BOGAN:
00088
01
What I do is I send off some of the signs to the
02
central office, and, say, you know, is this okay with
03
you all? Is it a strong enough
warning for you and
04
that kind of stuff, and then I'll purchase the signs
05
and give it -- I'll either have someone from our
06
office put them up or Mr. Perry, and he can put them
07 up
in different areas.
08 BY
DR. LOWRY:
09
Is there a No Dig sign being put up?
10 BY
MR. BOGAN:
11
I don't have one that says No Dig, but what I'm
12
working on into that area is we can get some pamphlets
13
specifically for Camp Croft, and they can be picked up
14 at
the ranger station and various other areas are
15
being set up.
16
I'm also putting together, initially, just a one
17
page and a couple of others, and we're just putting
18
together a one page summary just very quickly talking
19
about the RAB and what we're doing here and we want to
20
mail them to all of the landowners that we have
21
addresses for to make sure people know what we're
22
doing and try on a regular basis, as quick as I can,
23
without wearing myself working on it, I developed a
24
new one page summary every so often to tell landowners
25
what we're doing.
00089
01 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
02
Is there going to be a large sign at the
03
entrance of the Park?
04 BY
MR. BOGAN:
05
I have someone that was going to look at that
06
and they haven't designed one for me yet. I haven't
07
mentioned that to the Park post in Columbia to see if
08 I
can the authorization to put up at front or maybe
09
down in Area 7, as we mentioned, since that's the area
10
where we're most likely to get people to stop and they
11
can read it.
12 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
13
Well, I went down -- I spent an hour driving
14
down there the other day to see if there was any new
15
signs. There isn't any, and on
the local bulletin
16
boards it really doesn't state what is going on,
17
really, except there is some explosives being looked
18
for, notify the Corps of Engineers, and which you
19
leaves to the point of a little bit of nothing.
20
But there is nothing potent to say, "Hey,
21
there's some danger." I
went down by the lake. There
22
was one guy down there in a boat.
I had five other
23
cars that I could not find the people that belonged to
24
the cars. I don't know whether
they were walking
25
around or whatever they were doing.
I went up there
00090
01 by
the no -- or the area that's supposed to be off
02
limits, and a truck was parked there.
I could not
03
find him. I walked around in the
parking lot trying
04 to
find him. What kind of protection do we
have down
05
there for these people so they have the knowledge of
06
what's going on?
07 BY
MR. BOGAN:
08
I've gotten pamphlets, and hopefully very
09
shortly I can get these printed and sent to the Park
10 so
we can get those put up so nobody can do that.
11 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
12
Are you one going to put one of these signs at
13
the 40 acres? That's what he's
talking about.
14 BY
MR. BOGAN:
15
Like the ---
16 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
17
Like the one you just showed.
18 BY
MR. BOGAN:
19
At Area 7 or ---
20 BY
MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:
21
Yeah, 7.
22 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
23
Yeah.
24 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
25
Area 7. That's just like I was reading
to you a
00091
01
little bit earlier. All of this
is so potential, and
02
then there's no sign.
03 BY
MR. BOGAN:
04
Well, we can do is take a combination of those
05
two signs, the one that I showed you, like this, plus
06 the other one that I just explained to you, and do a
07
combination of those signs around the hilltop we've
08
already been and replace those signs, the paper signs
09
that are there, and see about getting those in other
10
areas that there are potential.
11
Any other questions about the Supplemental
12
Archive Search Report before we go onto new business?
13
(NO RESPONSE)
14 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
15
Do you want to take a 10 minute break?
16 BY
MR. BOGAN:
17
Let's take a quick break, and we'll come back
18
and finish here and take care of any other issues that
19
you have.
20 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
21
Let me ask you one fast question on the Archive.
22 On
the private meeting that they said that they
23
weren't available. Are they
available? Were they
24
destroyed or what on the former Camp?
25 BY
MR. BOGAN:
00092
01
Looking at the Volume 1 of the Archive Search
02
Report it lists all the things that are available in
03
the National Archives.
04 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
05
Are those going to be put in the library?
06 BY
MR. BOGAN:
07
Yes, sir. They'll be there for
to review
08
whenever you want.
09
We'll take a quick 10 minute break, and we'll
10
come back and we'll finish up our meeting.
11
(BRIEF BREAK IN MEETING)
12 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
13
As we said, we'll go ahead for a few minutes at
14
this point and discuss any new business, any
15
additional comments or questions that, in general, the
16
Board might have. Anymore
discussion on the meeting
17
this past Friday night, we'll talk about that briefly;
18
and any comments or questions from the audience, we'll
19 be
happy to address those, and then we'll review the
20
April meeting.
21
So let me turn it over to the Board to see if
22
there is any business that you would like to discuss,
23
anything that we can follow up and provide next month.
24
All right. Comments on the
Friday meeting.
25 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
00093
01
I was just curious as to what the Corps does
02
know about this group called WAR?
03 BY
MR. BOGAN:
04
Essentially, the only dealings we've had with
05
WAR at this point, initially, when they first started
06
coming into the area or that I knew of them coming
07
into the area, they sent out right of entries to
08
several of the landowners.
09
Somehow or another I got one through a fax, and
10 in
one of the paragraphs of the right of entry it
11
indicated that it was up to the landowner to back
12
against the government to get reimbursed for the work
13
being done on the property.
14
It said that, "Well, we're not charging the
15
landowner," but then it was up to the landowner to go
16
and get the government to get the payment, and so our
17
attorneys talked with them and said this is -- you
18
can't obligate the government to do something. You
19
know, we can obligate ourselves, but you can't
20
obligate us, and so that was taken out of their
21
statement.
22
And we had some information faxed in from them.
23 We
talked with them on the phone, and that's -- other
24
than talking with Mr. Johnson at the last meeting and
25
the phone call with Mr. Shook that one time, that's
00094
01
the only dealings that I've had with them.
02 BY
MR. HAMER:
03
Was this group organized specifically to examine
04
Camp Croft, or are they a national ---
05 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
06 Oh, no.
No, they're an international.
07 BY
MR. HAMER:
08
They're national.
09 BY
MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:
10
They'll do anything you want them to do.
11 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
12
You just -- you just ---
13 BY
MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:
14
Name it.
15 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
16
--- name it, they'll do it.
17 BY
MR. HAMER:
18
How long have they been in business, do you
19
know?
20 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
21
Did you get that information, Gary?
I don't
22
know if they even stated it that night, but they have
23 a
box in -- they have a box in Tryon, North Carolina.
24
They have an office in Asheboro, North Carolina, and
25
one here in Spartanburg.
00095
01 BY
MR. HAMER:
02
That's the first I've heard of this group.
03 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
04
Yeah, well, that's the first we heard of them,
05
too, and that's the reason that we went to the meeting
06
last week just to see what was going to happen, and
07
Suzy was even there, which surprised me, coming down
08
from Charlotte for the meeting, but they recognized
09
her right off the bat.
10
They didn't know who Harold and I and George
11
were, but they -- they brought some things that were
12 real
interesting. In fact, if the guy is
accurate in
13
what he's talking about, he knows a hell of a lot
14
about this project out here, and I'm just wondering if
15 he
really does.
16
He talks about Aberdeen, Sanford.
He had
17
contacted Aberdeen and had gotten all of this
18
information from them. And he
contacted Archive, and
19 he
had all this information from the Archives on the
20
Camp. The 1989 map, I'd love to
see a copy of that
21
myself, because it had all the ranges on it and where
22
they would find different things.
Do you have a copy
23 of
it?
24 BY
MR. BOGAN:
25
Actually, I don't have a copy of theirs. In the
00096
01
original Archive Search Report there is a map in here
02
that details maps.
03 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
04
Well, the one he has is as big as the screen
05
here.
06 BY
MR. BOGAN:
07
Right.
08 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
09
And ---
10 BY
MR. BOGAN:
11
And we've got maps in here that identifies where
12 we
believe the ranges were located. Based
on some
13
historical information, you'll find that information
14 in
the Supplemental Archives Search Report old maps
15
that actually pinpoint Number 17, Number 16 and Number
16
15.
17 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
18
Well, these were actually satelite photographs,
19
weren't they?
20 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
21
It was a satelite fly over type.
22 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
23
This is what -- I mean, when you saw something
24
like that, George, it made you think a little bit,
25
didn't it, but we're just wondering where he got all
00097
01
his information that we can't get it?
02 BY
MR. BOGAN:
03
Maybe -- I'm not saying he may or may not have
04
stuff that we don't know have.
It -- this was in the
05
library. Some of the
information, he could have gone
06 to
the Archives himself and got it, and some of it he
07
may have gotten from our information that's already in
08
the library. I don't know, and
not having seen his
09
and knowing what was there, I can't say.
10 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
11
At the meeting on Friday night, instead of doing
12
what she's doing, they had the voice and they took the
13
whole record on everything that went on. It might be
14 to
the point that we can get a copy.
15 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
16
That's for public record.
17 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
18
Did they indicate where those might be
19
available?
20 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
21
They said it was going to be for the public?
22 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
23
Did they say if they were going to leave a copy?
24 I
didn't pick up on whether or not they were going to
25
leave it in the library.
00098
01 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
02 She left with the tapes in her hand.
03 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
04
Yeah.
05 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
06
Because I saw her take them. I
know she had
07
four cassettes with her when she left that she took
08
herself, but I really would like to ---
09 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
10
Their site office is just down on Chapman Road,
11
and they've got a phone number here local.
12 BY
MR. MCBAIN:
13
They have a map room down there, also.
It's
14
pretty extensive from what I've heard.
15 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
16
I've been invited to go down and look at it,
17
which I'm going to go down, and one of the things I --
18 I
found out just by attending the meeting that instead
19 of
just having tunnel vision, I got to look at
20
everything available. Like I
told you earlier that if
21
one quarter of what they said is true, there's some
22
problems in here.
23 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
24
I know that Mr. Shook used to run a Army ---
25 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
00099
01
Surplus.
02 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
03
--- Army Surplus Store.
04 BY
MR. BOGAN:
05
Yeah.
06 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
07
And he had all these shells and things that you
08
saw Friday night. He had those
in the store, I know,
09
because he admitted it. He
admitted it a couple of
10
times.
11 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
12
Is that up by Son & Sam?
13 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
14
Yeah, that's the place, same guy.
15 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
16
Yeah, that's the guy -- the
card it says, we
17
create insurrections and stuff like that, you know.
18 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
19
Well, I mean, if you read the thing, they'll do
20
anything. For example, right
here it says, "Counter
21 anti-terrorism,"
I mean, the whole bit. I tell ya,
22
but here's what they -- this is what they told us at
23
the meeting for you people who weren't there. First
24
off, they talked about the history and evolution of
25
Camp Croft.
00100
01 They went through the training areas, the
02
training techniques, the types of ordnance used and
03
they had samples of it so we could see it; the burial
04 of
ordnance and facilities pre-war; the burial of
05
ordnance materials of the war years; and the burial of
06
ordnance materials at Camp closing; ordnance removal
07
activities today and future World Armament research
08
proposals.
09
Now that's what they talked about at the
10
meeting. I mean, they had
answers for everything.
11 BY
MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:
12
But another statement they made that nothing
13
left this area.
14 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
15
Right.
16 BY
MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:
17
And then they buried a lot of stuff from World
18
War I. This was to be a staging
area. In case the
19
United States was invaded, they would work their way
20
back. It was a back up.
21 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
22
It was a back up ---
23 BY
MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:
24
Fort Jackson.
25 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
00101
01
--- between Charleston, and the crossroads were
02
right here. 176 and 9 were the
two major highways.
03 BY
MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:
04
Yeah.
05 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
06
In those days and Camp Croft was located right
07 in
the middle of them and it was a back up staging for
08
retreating from Charleston. I
mean, they knew all
09
this stuff.
10 BY
MR. HAMER:
11
For what? Before World War II or
after?
12 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
13
Before World War II.
14 BY
MR. HAMER:
15
Before.
16 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
17
Yeah, before World War II.
18 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
19
In the '40s.
20 BY
MR. BOGAN:
21
In case we were invaded.
22 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
23
In case we were invaded everybody would come --
24
everything would come from Charleston through Camp
25
Croft.
00102
01 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
02
They stated that Aberdeen sent vehicles down
03
here for training and for approving -- and approving
04
grounds sent them down here for training to figure out
05
what was going on with them.
06 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
07
They told us -- what was the other thing they
08
told us? I'm drawing a complete
blank now.
09 BY
DR. LOWRY:
10
Can they get money out of Washington?
11 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
12
Huh?
13 BY
DR. LOWRY:
14
Can they get money out of Washington?
15 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
16
No. No, we asked them that
question. They're
17
still going in the hole. They
spent $15,000 and said
18
they would keep right on spending it.
19 BY
DR. LOWRY:
20
I was going to hire them to get it for us.
21 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
22
Uh-huh (affirmative response).
23 BY
DR. KEITH:
24
Who's funding this group? I
mean, where are
25
they getting their money from?
00103
01 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
02
I have no idea.
03 BY
MR. MCBAIN:
04
They're all retired military.
05 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
06 Yeah, they're all retired military.
07 BY
MS. FRETWELL:
08
How do you know what they spent except what they
09
say?
10 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
11
That's what they say.
12 BY
MR. MCBAIN:
13
Well, they tickled my curiosity, and as Perry
14
will tell you, I'm kind of a curious cat, so let me
15
pass onto you what little I know about them. It's
16
just in the matter of general knowledge.
17
They're -- all three of them, apparently, have
18
retired military pensions. They
also have some
19
interesting connections.
20
One of them, I think, worked for quite awhile
21
with the Secret Service, which is or is not, as the
22
case might be, of interest to you people, but don't
23
sell any of these, quote, outside organizations short,
24
because there's a lot of strange things going on here,
25
particularly in the Greenville area, and some of their
00104
01
information is coming from way upstairs, believe me.
02 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
03
You know, some people -- I believe what you're
04
saying. I really do. Some of these people that
05
they're looking for buried ordnances out there.
06 BY
MR. MCBAIN:
07
Well, there is ---
08 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
09
That's what they're really
looking for.
10 BY
MR. MCBAIN:
11
I can speak from a little bit of experience on
12
that. There is stuff buried out
here, and the thing
13
that tickles my curiosity, if you want something to
14
think about, is the fact there were certain SS German
15
prisoners out here, and and Vecht Van Gogh {phonetic
16
spelling} disappeared under strange circumstances, and
17
that's the thing that this chap or this setting here
18 or
the likes upset $2 Million in gold disappeared,
19
some of which has been traced into this area, and this
20
came out of the Federal Reserve.
You think I'm
21
joking. You think I'm joking.
22 BY
DR. KEITH:
23
This will be like the Gold Rush of California.
24
Everybody is going to start digging.
25 BY
MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:
00105
01
Let me tell you an example about them.
I was
02
standing out in my carport and looking across the
03
street. I own two acres of land
over there. I have a
04
lot and one of the main water lines busted, so they
05
had to dig a big hole to repair it.
06
Well, they put a little dirt back in there and
07
put a pile all around it, and I saw this World
08
Armament van. He was over there
looking in that hole.
09 I
don't know what he was looking for, because there
10
wasn't nothing in it, but -- so they're around and
11
they're looking. Anybody digging
or doing things,
12
they're checking.
13 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
14
They talked about the gas bunkers, which we had
15
heard about here, and they talked about all those
16
things that we've heard about and then some. So, I
17
mean, he -- this guy had all the answers, and ---
18 BY
MR. BOGAN:
19
Sure.
20 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
21
I can get copies of the tapes of everything.
22
It's interesting.
23 BY
MR. MCBAIN:
24
And one of the things that you haven't put
25
together, and I suspect, that I haven't you say
00106
01
anyway, is the fact that there was a captain who was
02
here in the Camp, and at the closing, who just
03
recently retired from your National Guard, who
04
controlled for certain individuals in much of that
05
area out there and lived in that area out there.
06 I -- there's some strange tales about
some
07
things that went on, and there are people who, to me,
08
seem rather reputable, but I -- I realize that's maybe
09
drawing a little bit of a herring across the folks are
10
thinking, but don't sell these guys short. I mean,
11
they've done a good job in doing their research.
12 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
13
Oh, they've done a lot of research.
There's no
14
doubt about that.
15 BY
MR. BOGAN:
16
And let me make this point in that anybody that
17
wants to give us information -- again, I understand
18
their spending own money -- we'll willing to take
19
that, and that's part of the purpose of this RAB is
20
for us to get more information in from sources other
21 than
what we're doing.
22
When we'll hire a contractor to come out,
23
they'll do certain amounts of research and work, but
24
they're only getting a certain amount of money and a
25
certain amount of time to do it.
And if they miss
00107
01
something in that time period, then they're gone until
02
the next contractor comes in, and that contractor has
03 to
work based on the earlier ones work. So
we need
04
everybody's input for anything that we know -- that if
05
you know of the sources of things that are going on,
06
you think of them, write that down.
07 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
08
I think -- I think we can try to get them here
09
the next meeting, if they ---
10 BY
MR. BOGAN:
11
That's up -- if the Board want them here.
12 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
13
If they want to hear it.
14 BY
MR. MCBAIN:
15
I think one of the things that they're
16
particularly concerned with is the fact that there may
17
have been ordnance buried and that has been recovered
18
and going into private hands and didn't go to your --
19 to
your tear up zone down in Alabama where they
20
destroy all this stuff. I think
that's one of the
21
things that bothers these guys more than anything else
22 is
the fact that we all know -- well, an M-1 is not a
23
replacement for a AP-47, but there's still a lot of
24
damage that an M-1 can do, like shoot a mile into rock
25 if
it's the right stuff.
00108
01 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
02
Mr. Shook is also still in the Reserves or
03
National Guard.
04 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
05
Reserves in Georgia.
06 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
07
Yeah, and is in ordnance at the present time.
08 BY
MR. BOGAN:
09
And to kind of go along with what you're talking
10
about like finding crates and the M-1s and the rifles
11
and that kind of stuff, somebody finds that on their
12
property and that's not necessary an ordnance item,
13
it's not going to explode, and the general feeling
14 that
I've gotten from people I've asked about that and
15
does that still belong to the government or the
16
landowner, we essentially say that's the landowner's.
17 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
18
Would you repeat that last statement, again, so
19 I
can hear it?
20 BY
MR. BOGAN:
21
The only thing we're worried about is bombs that
22
are going to blow up.
23 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
24
Yeah, I understand that.
25 BY
MR. BOGAN:
00109
01
The M-1s weren't -- if you find an old M-1 on
02
your property, a motorcycle or a truck or any kind of
03
things that are supposedly buried there, the property
04
was sold back to the landowner.
It belongs to the
05
landowner.
06
Now the difference is if they dig up mortar
07
rounds, and I can't stop them from digging it up, but
08 if
they go and try and sell it, and I don't think that
09
it's legal. I don't know. I don't have an opinion on
10
that from our attorneys, but I don't think it's legal
11 for anybody in the U.S. to go around selling mortars.
12 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
13
But they can keep them.
14 BY
MR. MCBAIN:
15
But basically, you're old -- I don't know
16
whether they had what we call the burp guns. I don't
17 know
whether they had those, but they're -- they're
18
illegal under your Federal Fire Arms found today. I
19
mean, they're probably the same thing as your oozies
20
and your Schneizers and all that stuff.
There are
21
people, I'm sure, who still have Schneizers that they
22
brought back. That's not -- I've
seen some.
23 BY
MR. BOGAN:
24
And that gets into the State Law Enforcement
25
Division authorities and all, and then you get into
00110
01
the FBI and some of the other who know all the types
02 of
ammunitions.
03
Yes, sir.
04 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
05
A couple things I wanted to jump on before we
06
get through here. Is -- there
was tapes done on
07
finding ordnance and blowing up of ordnance, and that
08 is
the report that one was sent to Charleston's
09
office. Is it available that we
can look at it?
10 BY
MR. BOGAN:
11
Tapes as in like a videotape?
12 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
13
Right.
14 BY
MR. BOGAN:
15
I ---
16 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
17
One was sent to Huntsville, and I think the
18
other one was sent to Charleston.
19 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
20
What was that, Harold?
21 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
22
Tapes on when they found the ordnance and
23
blowing it up.
24 BY
MR. BOGAN:
25
I don't know of anything in Charleston right
00111
01
now. I'll check.
02 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
03
It said that one was sent to Charleston.
04 BY
DR. LOWRY:
05
WSPA has one.
06 BY
MR. BOGAN:
07
Well, if that's -- that's also like I was
08
supposed to get four copies of this report, and I got
09
three copies.
10 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
11
And then on 3/23 of '95 there was -- on
12
television there was filmed demolition, also, and then
13
I'd like to see if I could get the copy of went on on
14
media day on October the 19th, 1994, and see what was
15
told to the media and so forth.
16 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
17
Where did you get that from?
18 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
19
This is out of that report that's at the
20
library.
21 BY
MR. BOGAN:
22
We did hold a media day, and if you remember,
23
the Channel 7 spot was on not too long ago where, I
24
think it was Mr. Lancaster and Mr. Shook and some of
25
those were on. They did show
some of the file footage
00112
01 of
a mortar being blown up on Camp Croft.
02
I've got a couple of pictures and slides that
03
have been made, but I don't know if we have any video
04
footage of that. I'd have to
check with the TV
05
station.
06 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
07
All right. Okay. The other one that really
08
concerns me is Section 00U3, and this is that private
09
residential area on Wedgewood.
10 BY
MR. BOGAN:
11
Where at?
12 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
13
And reading from the areas from the book from
14
the library, plus it's also in 1.5 on 10/17 of '95 on
15
the reports that we got.
16
What I'd like to know, talking to a couple of
17
individuals that live over there, nothing has been
18
said to these property owners.
What are you going to
19 do
about it and notify them and let them know what's
20
going on so that they can attend to the meetings and
21
understandable what ---
22 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
23
You mean they don't know?
24 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
25
No.
00113
01 BY
MR. BOGAN:
02
Okay. The rule that the
contractor, when they
03
came in and started looking at these sites, what they
04
were supposed to do is, one, we had to get a right of
05
entry from the landowners, so there is some indication
06
that they had to sign a letter saying this is what
07
we'd do if we come in. Unless
the contractor looked
08 at
the site and when they found something, then they
09
were supposed to try, if possible, the landowner what
10
was there.
11
As I mentioned earlier, I'll try -- I've got a
12
list of supposedly everybody that's a landowner in the
13
area, which include the residential area. I was going
14 to
send out the one page summaries to on what's going
15
on. Specifically, like Area 3
and the ones where I've
16
addressed tonight where we think there's an ordnance
17
potentially we've identified, then I want to send a
18
letter to them saying, "Hey, this is what we have
19
found on that property to date."
20 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
21
All right. This map that's on --
on Wedgewood
22 on
that area, dated August of '95, the 3.32, this --
23 is
these little marks houses?
24 BY
MR. BOGAN:
25
Yes, sir, they're houses.
00114
01 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
02
All right. Then this is the
highly contaminated
03
area right over here at the end of that, right?
04 BY
MR. BOGAN:
05
That, right there on the end?
06 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
07
All right. Is it in the whole
square?
08 BY
MR. BOGAN:
09
That's right in this area.
There's the sampling
10
grids, the 84, 85, 86 with the one house on the center
11 of
85.
12 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
13
Right.
14 BY
MR. BOGAN:
15
The golf course off to the east there.
16 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
17
Right.
18 BY
MR. BOGAN:
19
All right. That's where the
ground ---
20 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
21
This is going to be a stupid question, but why
22 is
that contaminated?
23 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
24
Because it was stated under here.
I'll read it
25 to
you. They found, "Investigated
news of past
00115
01
reports that hand grenade parts had been found.
02
Findings during the EE/CA investigative included MK2
03
fragmentation grenade, numerous practice hand grenades
04
and grenade parts suggesting that the area may have
05
been a former grenade practice area."
06 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
07
That's right up in the middle -- you all know
08
where he's talking about, don't you?
09 BY
MR. CLARY SMITH:
10
Yes, it was.
11 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
12
It was.
13 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
14
Was it?
15 BY
MR. CLARY SMITH:
16
It was.
17 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
18
It was?
19 BY
MR. CLARY SMITH:
20
It was.
21 BY
MR. RUSSELL SMITH:
22
That's not explosive. It wasn't
explosive over
23
there.
24 BY
MR. BOGAN:
25
And the estimated maximum density of seven per
00116
01
acre per 00U3 and an exposure probability ranging from
02
zero to one three hundred thousandths, and then they
03
wanted that ---
04 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
05
What was it?
06 BY
MR. BOGAN:
07
If I remember correctly what they found there
08
were 15 practice grenades and one MK, which was ---
09 BY
MR. CLARY SMITH:
10
Most of it was practice in that area.
11 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
12
They're -- they're concerned -- they're
13
concerned because of the children digging, planting,
14
and pool construction and installation of any utility
15
lines or whatever.
16 BY
MR. BOGAN:
17
And that's why we recommended the clearance to
18
depth in that area.
19
Is there anything particular that you want me to
20
respond, other than what I've just answered?
21 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
22
I think the homeowners in that area should be
23
notified.
24 BY
MR. BOGAN:
25
They should know -- at least the owner of that
00117
01
piece of property should already know, and like I
02
said, I'll try to sent out a one page summary
03
initially to every landowner.
04 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
05 Is there any other questions or comments?
06
(SEVERAL SPEAKING AT ONCE)
07 BY
MR. BOGAN:
08
It's going to be a quick fact sheet that tells
09
that we have to inform them.
10 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
11
Any other questions or comments?
12 BY
MR. BOGAN:
13
Any other new business?
14 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
15
Please state your name?
16 BY
MR. STEWART:
17
I don't know if I'm ignored, but I think it's
18
something that you should be concerned about. It
19
bothered me when Mr. Johnson got up and told what
20
happened about his father. Now
we're doing a lot of
21
researching and have done a lot of researching and
22
still doing research.
23
It bothered me that the gentleman who had the
24
property, had leased the property so many acres, the
25
government should have demand that he or she had some
00118
01
type of liability insurance to cover whatever has
02
taken place, and this incident to happen and no
03
consideration was made, I can hardly believe it. So
04
maybe that maybe one incident where a lot of
05
individuals don't want you on their property, even
06
though you just stated sometime ago that you were
07
insured -- not you, but the group that comes on
08
looking for whatever -- are insured, but people are
09
very skeptical about this, and what we're doing, I
10
think, is very effective, but if the word gets out to
11
the insurance company, after awhile they may say that
12
we're at high risk because everybody money oriented,
13
and eventually they'll want to go up on your
14
homeowners.
15 BY
DR. KEITH:
16
That's a good possibility.
17 BY
MR. STEWART:
18
Sure.
19 BY
DR. LOWRY:
20
Or how about insure you at all.
21 BY
MR. STEWART:
22
I do think, though it bothered me that some
23
research should be made and looked into, perhaps, the
24
Army Department would know, but somebody should give
25
Mr. Johnson an apology. He was
made no consideration
00119
01
for burial, and then he's insulted by if you had been
02 a
Japanese. That takes a lot out of you.
03 BY
MR. JOHNSON:
04
Yes, it does.
05 BY
MR. BOGAN:
06
Thank you, sir. Okay. I hope to be addressing
07
both of those.
08
First, I think you were kind of addressing the
09
liability of the landowner, and if we bring somebody
10 in
on the property now, one of our crews, you know,
11
and they do step in a hole or something, who is
12
responsible and liable, and that's a specific question
13
that I can ask our attorneys as to how to address
14
that, and I'll mention it to them about the Johnson
15
family and see what we can do for you.
16 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
17
One other item.
18 BY
MR. BOGAN:
19
Yes, sir.
20 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
21
I'd like to address to the Park at the present
22
time. If next Saturday week, not
this coming Saturday
23
but the next one, if it would be okay to bring a
24
person down there and then what have Board members
25
would like to attend, this gentleman says he knows
00120
01
where a whole bunch of ammunition is buried, and he'd
02 be
glad to take us down and show it to us.
03 BY
MR. PERRY:
04 When is that, Harold?
05 BY
MR. SANFORD SMITH:
06
What's the date?
07 BY
MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:
08
What's date is that Saturday?
09 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
10
Next Saturday week.
11 BY
MR. PERRY:
12
As long as it's not in areas already off limits.
13 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
14
Uh?
15 BY
MR. PERRY:
16
If it's in an area that's off limits, you can't
17 go
in.
18 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
19
What's the date on that?
20 BY
MR. BOGAN:
21
Well, this Saturday is what, the 16th?
22 BY
SEVERAL:
23
The 23rd.
24 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
25
But I was going to get a hold of you to set it
00121
01 up
to see what we can do and get an okay from the Park
02
Department to go in and do it.
He says he knows where
03 a
lot of it is.
04 BY
MR. BOGAN:
05
If he can show me where it's buried, and it's
06
not an area that's off limits, I'm more than welcome
07 --
I prefer to do it on a regular afternoon.
08 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
09
He's only available on Saturdays.
10 BY
MR. THOMPSON:
11
Why couldn't it be during the Week, Harold?
12 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
13
Because he's working and ---
14 BY
DR. KEITH:
15
Oh, he can't go. I see.
16 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
17
--- he can only go on Saturdays.
18 BY
MR. BOGAN:
19
Okay. If he's -- if he's willing
to show me
20
where some stuff is buried, let me know, and I'll try
21
and get there if I can. If not,
I'll try to get
22
somebody.
23
(SEVERAL SPEAKING)
24 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
25
Okay. Any other ---
00122
01 BY
MR. BOGAN:
02
But I'll get with you on a name and that kind of
03
stuff.
04 BY
MR. OSBORNE:
05
Okay.
06 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
07
Any other questions or comments, then we'll move
08
on.
09 BY
MR. JOHNSON:
10
I'd like to ask one more. Are we
supposed to
11
attend all the rest of the meetings, because this was
12
the first I heard about this. I didn't
even know
13
anything about this was going on until Mr. Smith over
14
there called, and I do appreciate it.
15 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
16
You've signed in? If you've
signed in out
17
front, you will be receiving our reminder notices for
18
all the meetings.
19 BY
MR. JOHNSON:
20
Okay.
21 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
22
Okay, and they're all public meetings, and
23
you're welcome to attend.
24 BY
MR. JOHNSON:
25
Okay. Thank you.
00123
01 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
02
For next month the items that we will cover, we
03
will vote on a chair, and we'll most likely seek
04
nominations the first of that meeting to have you all,
05
one of you all run the meetings.
We will, between now
06
and that time, the committee will have met, and we
07
will look for a report on the written dissertation on
08
the recommendations for clearance to depth, and
09
continue the discussion on the Supplemental Archive
10
Search.
11
Is there anything else that you would like to
12
see added to the next month's meeting agenda?
13 BY
MR. HAYES:
14
Can you tell us who is up for the Board so we
15
think about it?
16 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
17
Chair. I have those written
down. Let me get
18
those because I don't recall offhand who had indicated
19 an
interest. Mr. Osborne, you had
indicated an
20
interest to serve. Mr. Thompson,
I don't know. Did
21
you volunteer?
22 BY
MR. BOGAN:
23
What is this for?
24 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
25
The chair.
00124
01 BY
MR. BOGAN:
02
The chair.
03 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
04
They were just asking who -- three people have
05 --
I think, Ms. Wheeler.
06 BY
MS. WHEELER:
07
I rescind mine, please.
08 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
09
Okay. I had asked for volunteers
to be
10
considered for chair several months ago, and Mr.
11
Osborne. Okay. You're rescinding, and David?
12 BY
MR. DAVID MULLINAX:
13
We talked about it. Uh-huh
(affirmative
14
response).
15 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
16
Okay. So right now two folks are
interested in
17
serving as chair.
18 BY
DR. LOWRY:
19
Whose that? Osborne and who?
20 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
21
David Mullinax and Mr. Osborne.
22 BY
DR. KEITH:
23
He said he'd do it. He can't
speak. he has
24
lock jaw.
25 BY
MS. MCKINNEY:
00125
01
We'll vote on a chair for next month.
I'll have
02
those ballots prepared.
03
Anything else?
04
Well, this will then conclude the meeting. We
05
will meet on April 9th at 7:00 at the same location.
06
Thank you. 7:00 on the 9th.
07
(MEETING CONCLUDED AT APPROXIMATELY 9:20 P.M.)
00126
01
STATE OF SOUTH CAROLINA )
01 ) CERTIFICATE
02
COUNTY OF SPARTANBURG )
02
03
04
05
This is to certify that the within Board Meeting
06
was taken on the 12th day of March, 1996;
07
That the foregoing is an accurate transcript of
08
the meeting given;
09
That copies of all exhibits, if any, entered
10
herein are attached hereto and made a part of this
11
record;
12
That the undersigned court reporter, a Notary
13
Public for the State of South Carolina, is not an
14
employee or relative of any of the parties, counsel or
15
witness and is in no manner interested in the outcome
16 of
this action.
17
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my Hand
18
and Seal at Spartanburg, South Carolina, this 1st day
19 of
April, 1996.
20
20
21
21
22 ________________________________
22 Notary Public for South Carolina
23 Commission Expires: 8/26/97
23
24
24
25
(SEAL)