00001

01 CAMP CROFT RESTORATION ADVISORY BOARD MEETING

01 *******************************************************

02

02 PLACE: SC School for the Deaf and the Blind

03 Swearingen Conference Center

03

04 DATE: Tuesday, June 10, 1997

04

05 TIME: 7:08 p.m. to 8:00 p.m.

05

06 PRESENTATION

06 GIVEN BY: Lincoln Blake

07 U.S. Army Corps of Engineers

07 Charleston District

08

08 BOARD MEMBERS

09 PRESENT: David Mullinax, Chair

09 Gary Hayes

10 William Littlejohn, Jr.

10 W. Brownlee Lowry

11 George Mullinax

11 Harold D. Osborne

12 Gerard Perry

12 Robert W. Powell, Jr.

13 Dot Sloan

13 James B. Thompson

14 Sherry Wheeler

14

15 BOARD MEMBERS

15 NOT PRESENT: Norma Borkowski

16 Kathy Burrell

16 Fritz Hamer

17 John E. Keith

17 Clary H. Smith

18 Sanford N. Smith

18 Gerald T. Thurmond

19 Darwin J. Wilson

19

20 ALSO PRESENT: Suzy McKinney

20 Zapata Engineering, P.A.

21 1100 Kenilworth Avenue, Suite 104

21 Charlotte, North Carolina 28204

22

22 REPORTED BY: Sandy Satterwhite Reporting

23 P.O. Box 742

23 Roebuck, South Carolina 29376

24 (864)574-1455

24

00002

01 INDEX

02 Welcome by Mr. David Mullinax. . . . . . . . . . . . 3

03 Status of Removal Activities . . . . . . . . . . . . 3

04 1998 Restoration Advisory Board. . . . . . . . . . .49

05 New Business . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .51

06 Certificate of Reporter. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .58

00003

01 BY MR. DAVID MULLINAX:

02 Let me remind everybody, if you're new to the

03 meeting, if you have a question or a comment, please

04 state your name so that she can record it in the

05 record, and then proceed with your question.

06 At this time, I'll turn it over to Lincoln --

07 Lincoln Blake with the Corps of Engineers.

08 BY MR. BLAKE:

09 I don't think I -- I didn't bring enough for

10 everyone, but I do have some -- just copies of my

11 slide or slides, and if someone -- if you want to

12 doodle on them, I think I've got four or five copies

13 left of some of the areas that we've checked, what

14 kinds of unexploded ordnance we found there, and I'll

15 talk about that in a second if anyone wants them.

16 I'm Lincoln Blake and I'm with the Corps of

17 Engineers in the Charleston District. I'm

18 substituting for Wayne Bogan who would normally be

19 here. I guess I started out -- started out doing a

20 little work on Croft, and, oddly enough, I'm working

21 with dredging and diking in Charleston Harbor now, but

22 Wayne is on his honeymoon.

23 Unfortunately, I don't think everyone is going

24 to be able to see the maps on the wall, but that's one

25 of the things that I'll be talking about a little bit.

00004

01 I just couldn't find a way, on short notice to take

02 Wayne's place, to try to come up with a good way to

03 show where some of these areas are, and even some of

04 them are new to me in this last round of

05 investigations we've gotten out of the areas that I

06 was real, real familiar with.

07 But out of two maps, one of them shows -- the

08 one on the right which show where we have been in

09 there and where we have done some removals and work on

10 our earlier investigations, and the one on the left

11 shows our current investigations, and you'll see there

12 will be a lot of 11As and Bs and Cs and Ds, and what

13 happened is those areas, even though they were

14 scattered over the area, they put them together by the

15 type of ordnance they had in there. If it was

16 mortars, they generally looked at all those areas

17 together, whether they were on the Park or whether

18 they were on private land.

19 Before I go any further, I think I'll tell you

20 what's in -- if you'll -- if you look at what you've

21 got there is a list of unexploded ordnance and scrap

22 and anything else they found there.

23 If you look at the column that says, "UXO,"

24 that's unexploded ordnance; and when you look at it,

25 you'll find out most -- almost everything that was

00005

01 found was scrap except in one area and that was Area

02 12, and that's on that back page, so -- all right.

03 And I say that because I wouldn't want anybody to get

04 overly alarmed. The fact that you find scrap ordnance

05 does indicate that we would probably need to look a

06 little further in those areas.

07 I'm going to go in -- into this sort of in three

08 parts, and one of it is going to be our EE/CA. Well,

09 I'll say EE/CA, but it's Engineering Evaluation and

10 Cost Analysis.

11 That's where we go in there and try to look and

12 see what kinds of ordnance there might be in the area,

13 and that comes from people like you that know -- we

14 know there's activity here. We found pieces from

15 archive search where they go back into historical

16 records to try and find the impact areas.

17 They interpret old photographs. On some of the

18 old photographs you can actually see areas where it

19 looks like the trees have been damaged.

20 Anyway, the first part that we'll talk about is

21 this latest round of investigation which has recently

22 been completed. We've completed a draft report. It's

23 not in the library yet, but it should be very shortly.

24 I have a copy here if you want to look at it. And

25 that table that you had on the ordnance came -- is in

00006

01 that report.

02 The report identified four areas, one older area

03 and two new ones, and these OOUs stand for Operable

04 Ordnance Units, but I'm just going to call it Units,

05 and Unit 3 is over in the Wedgewood area. Unit 9 is

06 one of those that's in a lot of pieces. Some of them

07 are inside the Park and some of them are outside the

08 Park. 10 is an area that's pretty much all inside the

09 Park. 11 is entirely outside the Park, and 12 is also

10 outside the Park, and you'll see the tables you have

11 over there show the various areas where we did some

12 looking.

13 Generally, what they did, they picked an area

14 based on historical records or someone finding

15 something. They went out and looked at grids. And

16 when I'm talking about a grid, it was pretty much in

17 an opened area. It was 100 feet by a 100 feet. They

18 took a magnetometer and went through the area and

19 investigated some of the, a fancy term, anomalies or

20 anything that was different that broke up the magnetic

21 field.

22 In the built up areas, let's say around the

23 Wedgewood area, those grids were 50 feet by 50 feet,

24 and they did a total of 81 grids outside the Park and

25 49 inside the Park on this last go around.

00007

01 And we'll be doing some clearing and work in --

02 on those areas probably next FY, which will be

03 sometime after October 1st of next year.

04 Let's talk a little bit about each unit and OO

05 -- Unit 3 is over there around Wedgewood. This was

06 actually an investigation, and we did do a removal

07 action. We had one of these EE/CAs that we had done

08 earlier. We went in there and removed seven live hand

09 grenades.

10 Previously, what we had primarily found, you

11 know, were a lot of dummies and inert, which we --

12 hand grenades or practice hand grenades in that area.

13 What -- what the draft report is going to

14 recommend is clearance for use, which means if -- if

15 you're just -- if you're just walking around on it,

16 it's a recreational type area, it would be basically a

17 surface clearance. If you're -- you know, if it's

18 slated for construction and that kind of thing, we'd

19 go down and clear deep. Let's say if you're going to

20 build a house or something like that, it would go down

21 at least four feet.

22 Am I standing in front of it? I'm sorry.

23 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

24 Wayne, that doesn't jive with what I was told by

25 the Department of Defense in Washington. The

00008

01 Department of Defense in Washington says that if it's

02 for recreational use, it must be cleared to four feet.

03 They faxed me one of their civilian ---

04 BY MR. BLAKE:

05 It depends on what kind of recreational work --

06 use. If you're just -- if you're just walking around

07 and that kind of thing, it's just surface clearance.

08 You don't allow intrusive activities and that kind of

09 thing.

10 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

11 How do you prevent intrusive activities in Area

12 2 where you've -- where it's only surface cleared?

13 How do you prevent intrusive activity in that area?

14 BY MR. BLAKE:

15 You can't totally prevent it. I know the Park

16 people can tell you in Area 2, or any area on the Park

17 property, I think it's illegal to have magnetometers,

18 metal detectors, and it's illegal to do any digging.

19 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

20 Well, are you going to put signage over there?

21 BY MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:

22 Yeah.

23 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

24 Because I just left Area 2, and there is no

25 signage there.

00009

01 BY MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:

02 That's what I'm going to ask -- was going to

03 ask, but now we're talking about it.

04 BY MR. BLAKE:

05 Right.

06 BY MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:

07 Is -- how safe is the State Park? I mean, how

08 are we going to control people, like he's saying,

09 going in there and digging and putting tents, driving

10 tent pegs? I mean, are we going to have a sign?

11 BY MR. BLAKE:

12 Well, that will have -- that will have to be --

13 that will have to be controlled by the Park people,

14 and I understand there is some signage involved.

15 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

16 Lincoln, that's in an area that was 44 acres by

17 the original deed, the first page of the original

18 deed, it says there are 44 acres that should have been

19 fenced, and that was one of the sentences in the

20 original deed. All right. And there is no evidence

21 the State ever fenced it since 1944 or 1947 when they

22 bought it.

23 BY MR. BLAKE:

24 That's what I understand. Yes, sir.

25 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

00010

01 All right. So that area is where you surface

02 cleared, and, yet, the Corps of Engineers says that's

03 probably the most dangerous area in the Park. Now

04 what -- so if you surface cleared that, how do you

05 keep out intrusive actions?

06 Perry, you're the Park -- superintendent of the

07 Park, how are you going to prevent intrusive action?

08 BY MR. PERRY:

09 I don't think they've addressed that yet in the

10 office. They -- they know about it, but I don't know

11 what they are going to do, yet.

12 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

13 Do you have any idea when they will address

14 that?

15 BY MR. PERRY:

16 I have no idea. I think they're waiting to get

17 all the final word from the Corps. And once they get

18 their recommendation, then they'll -- then they'll do

19 something.

20 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

21 Lincoln, what are you all going to recommend

22 happen over there?

23 BY MR. BLAKE:

24 That they restrict -- that they restrict the

25 use, the way they've been doing.

00011

01 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

02 Signage?

03 BY MR. BLAKE:

04 There's going to be some highway padding, and

05 the we have some signage. Right. I ---

06 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

07 So ---

08 BY MR. BLAKE:

09 I kind of look at it like speeding. You know,

10 you've got signs up there that tell people not to

11 speed, but they speed, and the best you can do is

12 catch them.

13 BY DR. LOWRY:

14 I feel a little bit of responsibility here

15 because I was on the committee, Lincoln, that you may

16 not be familiar with, and I'm quite sure a lot of this

17 that you're not, but there was a committee of this

18 RAB Board that asked to make recommendations to the

19 Corps of Engineers about what to do in the Park as far

20 as clearance went.

21 In order to know what was proper, we asked the

22 Department of Defense Safety Explosive Order or

23 Explosive Safety Order -- I always get them mixed up

24 -- Colonel Wright faxed me some stuff from them, also,

25 and on that it said for recreational use it was four

00012

01 feet, construction it was ten feet, and for any

02 management it was one foot.

03 And so we, as a committee, got together and

04 wrote up something that is a part of the record and

05 recommended that in an area that was not cleared to

06 four feet be restricted to human habitation, and it

07 was accepted by this Board.

08 And so I would just like to make that a part of

09 this record that we also said that if any area was not

10 searched to four feet, that it was considered to be

11 dangerous and there would be signs placed before

12 humans were allowed in the area.

13 And I made the distinction, being a physician,

14 between humans and four legged animals because I think

15 we do have the responsibility as a Board. We go on

16 record as doing this, and I don't feel like we should

17 let people back into these areas without some kind of

18 warning to say, "Okay. This has been searched. This

19 has not been. Please stay off." And that was our

20 recommendation.

21 So, you know, whether you all followed that

22 recommendation or whether the State of South Carolina

23 followed that recommendation, it's up to you all, but

24 I would like to remind everybody that we did recommend

25 that only the safe area would be the area that the

00013

01 people were allowed back into.

02 BY MR. BLAKE:

03 It's my ---

04 BY DR. LOWRY:

05 Because we are responsible as citizens for

06 having made that recommendation.

07 BY MR. BLAKE:

08 It's my understanding, one you've done a surface

09 clearance, you do not have to totally limit access.

10 BY DR. LOWRY:

11 That -- that was -- okay. That was not my

12 understanding of Colonel Wright.

13 BY MR. BLAKE:

14 And I remember ---

15 BY DR. LOWRY:

16 I don't want to get into an argument.

17 BY MR. BLAKE:

18 --- all the controversy that came up over this

19 situation before.

20 BY DR. LOWRY:

21 I just think we need to have ---

22 BY MR. BLAKE:

23 But I agree, and ---

24 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

25 So what are we supposed to do? Let those folks

00014

01 in the Pentagon -- tell them that their -- theirs is

02 incorrect and yours is correct or which is correct?

03 BY MR. BLAKE:

04 Well, I think there was a bunch of controversy

05 in the way things were interpreted on a four foot

06 rule. I haven't been involved in that recently, and

07 it's not my area, but the four foot rule is one of

08 those rules that applies if you don't know anything.

09 If you know something, you don't clear to four

10 foot, as in the Area O -- in Unit 7 that is around the

11 Park Ranger's area. I think that's pretty much borne

12 out. I think we've got about 22 inches is about --

13 about the deepest we found anything.

14 BY DR. LOWRY:

15 The agreement we had with them as a Board was

16 that -- with Wayne -- was with this Board?

17 BY MR. BLAKE:

18 With Wayne or with the Park Service?

19 BY DR. LOWRY:

20 At this Board meeting, the agreement or the

21 understanding that we had was that they were going to

22 go to two feet, and anything below two feet that was

23 suspicious, they would dig to four feet.

24 BY MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:

25 Right.

00015

01 BY DR. LOWRY:

02 Am I incorrect?

03 BY MR. BLAKE:

04 Which -- which they did, but they didn't -- they

05 didn't find -- I think 22 inches is the number I

06 remember.

07 BY DR. LOWRY:

08 Like I say, I don't want to get an argument

09 about it.

10 BY MR. BLAKE:

11 Right.

12 BY DR. LOWRY:

13 I just wanted to say we, as a Board, wanted the

14 signs put up.

15 BY MR. BLAKE:

16 Right. But the Corps of Engineers can't post

17 somebody's property and say you can't get on it. That

18 would be considered an illegal taking.

19 BY DR. LOWRY:

20 I think that our government will let you post

21 one.

22 BY MR. BLAKE:

23 Anyway, we were on Wedgewood, and we did find

24 some live hand grenades and the clearance for use is

25 going to be recommended.

00016

01 And I would recommend -- I would say this is a

02 preliminary draft report. You're kind of getting a

03 little -- a little bit of early information on it.

04 BY MR. OSBORNE:

05 Harold Osborne. How many properties were tested?

06 BY MR. BLAKE:

07 Harold, I don't know exactly the total number,

08 because I'm not the main man on this. I've got the

09 area marked out, but how many property owners that

10 includes, I really don't know yet. You can look at

11 the map and try and get you a good feel for how many

12 are in there.

13 BY MR. OSBORNE:

14 I talked to someone that said that they had

15 missed done the way they were supposed to turn in this

16 okay to do it and that they were still okay -- as far

17 as they were concerned, it was okay to come on their

18 property, and -- but we never did resubmit a new slip

19 for them to go on. What do we on some of these?

20 BY MR. BLAKE:

21 Say that again?

22 BY MR. OSBORNE:

23 All right. You had to have a slip from the

24 property owners to come in there and do the

25 inspection.

00017

01 BY MR. BLAKE:

02 Right.

03 BY MR. OSBORNE:

04 And some of them didn't turn in their slips.

05 BY MR. BLAKE:

06 Okay.

07 BY MR. OSBORNE:

08 But the ones I talked to said that they were

09 still -- as far as they were concerned, it was okay

10 for the Corps to come in there.

11 BY MR. BLAKE:

12 And they ---

13 BY MR. OSBORNE:

14 But how do we redo it?

15 BY MR. BLAKE:

16 They can -- they can -- they can -- they can do

17 it. We're not -- we're not through, and that's what

18 I'm going to talk about in a little bit. We're --

19 we're going to go back. We have some areas that --

20 additional areas to look at, and I was going to talk

21 about that in just a little bit.

22 Anyway, it's -- I guess some of the folks that

23 live over there saw the blast blocks -- boxes they had

24 out there when they worked the area, but all the

25 rounds were taken over to OU -- Operating Unit 2 and

00018

01 they were blown there and blown it in place.

02 BY MR. MCBAIN:

03 Colonel Blake, question. McBain here. Do you

04 know upon Wedgewood or were you acquainted with where

05 the live rounds were found on Wedgewood?

06 BY MR. BLAKE:

07 I can't tell you the exact locations. Like I

08 said, I just -- I've just got a general knowledge

09 of ---

10 BY MR. MCBAIN:

11 Will it be in the Corps' report?

12 BY MR. BLAKE:

13 Oh, yeah. It's -- it's in -- it's in the

14 report. It gives you the exact grids, and they've got

15 some maps inside there, and we'd be glad to share

16 them. Like I said, they will be in the Spartanburg

17 Library.

18 Okay. Unit No. 9, you can, though -- when you

19 get up there and you can see the maps, they're pretty

20 much scattered. There were -- it was small arms area

21 and that's why we put them all together.

22 And one wouldn't expect small arms to present

23 any undo danger, no explosives, and the preliminary

24 recommendation is that we don't do any further action.

25 BY MR. OSBORNE:

00019

01 One more question on Wedgewood. Was any of the

02 area on the golf course checked at all?

03 BY MR. BLAKE:

04 I don't think so. If I remember correctly, they

05 were all planning to do a little bit of work, and a

06 earlier report had recommended that we don't do any on

07 the golf course, and I think the recommendation is to

08 go in there and do a little work.

09 Area 10, those were grenade and mortar areas

10 within the State Park, and they're recommended for

11 surface clearance.

12 And these were in -- all were in areas that were

13 not slated for any intrusive use by the Park -- no

14 digging, no building buildings and that type of thing.

15 Area 11, that's the grenade and mortar areas

16 outside the Park. They're recommending clearance for

17 use. In other words, if they're some activities,

18 they're going to build something or do something that

19 will clear it.

20 I guess I should say if they're -- you know, for

21 just general activities, they would -- you'd have a

22 surface clearance.

23 The same thing with Area 12 is the unexploded

24 ordnance areas outside the Park, and that's the one

25 area where in the investigative phase they actually

00020

01 found some unexploded ordnance versus scrap.

02 Some of the preliminary recommendations are that

03 coming out of there that will be reviewed. Right now

04 these are -- these are the contractor's

05 recommendations. The Corps of Engineers has yet to

06 fully review them to decide whether they are feasible

07 and the best clearance method has been picked for each

08 site.

09 And, Mr. Osborne, this is where we were talking

10 about there's some additional sites being looked at as

11 a result of interviews and some other data we have.

12 We're going to try and sample those within the next

13 three months or so. Those include some around

14 Wedgewood and some of them are right there in Unit 3,

15 but some of them are around that.

16 And I think a couple of the property owners that

17 -- the names that I was able to get from Huntsville

18 was Pace, Correll, Carolina Bullwater, and there's a

19 couple of anonymous.

20 So it will -- it will probably be a couple of

21 months before the final report comes out. I guess

22 most of the people know the drill. I guess the --

23 this is a preliminary draft that came out, and I guess

24 you'll have sort of a final draft. There will be a

25 public meeting to discuss the issues and the level of

00021

01 cleanup to give the entire public a chance to have

02 input.

03 Once we get the report finalized and get public

04 input, our human factors associates contract will be

05 finalized to clear the areas.

06 And the last thing here is this table that --

07 that I think most of you got that shows what they

08 found in the investigation.

09 Going to the second and three -- three things is

10 -- let's talk a little bit about some of the most

11 recent completed removal actions. This goes back to

12 several areas on the Park, which is 1B and 2, and 3,

13 which is Wedgewood, and that's -- we've sort of mixed

14 there a little bit of apples and oranges, and you

15 remember earlier I talked about -- about Wedgewood.

16 There's some more slated for there, but we actually

17 had a removal action where we found these seven live

18 hand grenades. Seven which is in the Park -- the Park

19 range area and A39, which is another area within the

20 Park.

21 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

22 Lincoln, what is the definition of a surface

23 clearance? What do you do in a surface clearance?

24 BY MR. BLAKE:

25 Generally, if it's sitting on top of the ground,

00022

01 the tip is sitting at the ground, we go in there and

02 take it out.

03 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

04 So if it's ---

05 BY MR. BLAKE:

06 It could be covered. It could be covered with

07 leaves, but if you kick the leaves away, it's

08 generally clear.

09 You'll have to see it.

10 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

11 It's -- you do? You have to see it? You have

12 to ---

13 BY MR. BLAKE:

14 You do not have to see it. You can have a

15 magnetometer, and that was a real -- a real bug-a-boo

16 in the woods around the Park. I mean, it was leaves.

17 The whole Park was full of leaves.

18 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

19 Well, so anything like an inch below the surface

20 would not be taken?

21 BY MR. BLAKE:

22 Not -- not -- normally in a surface clearance

23 when we wouldn't do that.

24 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

25 Okay. So, now, the 48 EOD down at Fort Jackson

00023

01 says two things. It says that ammunition is getting

02 less dependable because it's getting rusty and it's

03 getting worn after 50 years and that frost heat is

04 pushing this up. So how long do we have before the

05 stuff you haven't removed is like, say, a half an inch

06 or an inch below the surface. How do we have, do you

07 think, before that's on the surface over in Area 2?

08 BY MR. BLAKE:

09 I have no idea. That's kind of totally out of

10 my area. I wouldn't even want to -- want to guess on

11 it.

12 BY MR. MCBAIN:

13 Gary, maybe the doctor can tell us. Don't they

14 figure that one leaf fall ultimately breaks down into

15 about an eighth of an inch of topsoil?

16 BY DR. POWELL:

17 It takes 900 hundred years for one inch of

18 topsoil to form in this area.

19 BY DR. LOWRY:

20 It takes an awful lot of leaves, but I can tell

21 you that on my property -- not talking about frost

22 heat but erosion is exposed to three 60 millimeter

23 mortars within six months. Of course, you always have

24 other things to consider, but two of these mortars

25 have been removed, and one of them is still sticking

00024

01 out of the ground and two of them were alive. Of

02 course, there are other things to consider.

03 BY DR. POWELL:

04 What size were they?

05 BY DR. LOWRY:

06 60.

07 BY DR. POWELL:

08 60.

09 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

10 Gary, that 48 EOD -- 48th down at Fort Jackson,

11 now what type of unit is that?

12 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

13 It's a -- it's a -- they're experts, ordnance

14 experts.

15 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

16 So what type of ordnance experts are they? Bomb

17 demolition or what?

18 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

19 Yes.

20 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

21 So they're not with the Corps of Engineers?

22 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

23 No, they're not.

24 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

25 And they're not involved with the ordnance

00025

01 removal?

02 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

03 Yes, they are.

04 BY DR. LOWRY:

05 Yes, they are.

06 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

07 Yes, they are.

08 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

09 In removal?

10 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

11 Yes.

12 BY DR. LOWRY:

13 They've come to my property.

14 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

15 At the request of the Corps of Engineers?

16 BY DR. LOWRY:

17 At my request and at the request of the Sheriff.

18 BY MR. BLAKE:

19 I think one ---

20 BY DR. LOWRY:

21 They found a live piece of ordnance on my

22 property. We now have a very good ordnance person

23 hired by the Sheriff's Department who was with HFA

24 when the did the critical -- time critical removal on

25 my property. He was perfectly qualified and he can

00026

01 take care of most everything that the Corps had. We

02 had -- we had an ordnance person, but he preferred

03 that in some instances we call the 48. They came up

04 and got some 105s off my property and blew a rocket,

05 and they are quite expert at what they do.

06 The fellow that we have now, Rick Brenner, who

07 is with HFA and married a girl from Spartanburg who

08 was Ms. Spartanburg at one time and she wanted to come

09 back home to live, so now he works at the Sheriff's

10 Department. We have an expert on what is happening,

11 but the 48th has been to my property to remove two

12 ordnances, and they are quite experienced in what they

13 do as far as their specific duties in removal action.

14 BY MS. WHEELER:

15 Are they not a contact unit with the Spartanburg

16 County Police for this type of thing?

17 BY DR. LOWRY:

18 Yes, but I think the present ordnance officer we

19 have is able to take care of an awful lot of stuff

20 because he removed this round out of my property last

21 week.

22 BY MS. WHEELER:

23 Right.

24 BY DR. LOWRY:

25 Or the week before. I think he's perfectly

00027

01 qualified.

02 BY MR. BLAKE:

03 Yeah. About the only thing I would -- I would

04 say is the difference between those guys at Fort

05 Jackson is they sort of do this on a, you know, one

06 round basis. They're not -- they're not in the

07 business of wholesale going in areas and clearing

08 hundreds of acres, and that's something that people

09 need to realize that we're trying to do is clear some

10 areas in 200 to 300 acres at a time.

11 BY MR. MCBAIN:

12 So ---

13 BY MR. BLAKE:

14 So they're coming out there and you find a

15 round, you call the Sheriff's Department. Normally,

16 or they used to call the EOD at Fort Jackson. They'll

17 come out and blow a round.

18 BY MR. THOMPSON:

19 But which takes ---

20 BY MR. BLAKE:

21 But they'll come out and do ---

22 BY MR. THOMPSON:

23 It takes longer with the EOD, though, doesn't

24 it?

25 BY MR. BLAKE:

00028

01 Yes. It can get real expensive, and there are a

02 lot -- there are a lot of things that you -- that you

03 find, and I guess while I'm at that, just -- and I'm

04 not an ordnance expert at all, but I was just, you

05 know, reading some of the reports myself and just

06 looking at them. Some of -- some of the areas were

07 100 by 200 foot grid, which is about a half acre, a

08 little less. Some areas they had 66,000 hits on the

09 magnetometer.

10 BY MR. THOMPSON:

11 It worries me coming up, frost and all that out

12 that will get to it.

13 BY MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:

14 Erosion.

15 BY MR. THOMPSON:

16 Yeah, erosion.

17 BY MR. BLAKE:

18 And that's always a possibility. If you get a

19 gully or someone cuts a road in there, and -- and we

20 -- I think early on we found a round where -- where it

21 had someone cut it -- had cut a road in there, so it's

22 -- it's always an issue, but you're never going to get

23 every round no matter what you do.

24 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

25 Well, the report that I have on my desk says --

00029

01 and maybe you say that's probably not the best report

02 to look at it -- shows that there are 56 mortars down

03 lying in the surface of the ground in Area 2 of the

04 Park, and I just -- that was faxed to me yesterday, I

05 guess it was.

06 BY MR. BLAKE:

07 Yeah, I sent it to you.

08 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

09 Okay. 56 -- 56 live grenades lying on the

10 ground in that area.

11 BY MR. BLAKE:

12 Mortars? Mortars?

13 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

14 I mean, 50 mortar rounds.

15 BY MR. BLAKE:

16 Mortar.

17 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

18 Mortar rounds in -- in Area 2, so if that's on

19 the surface, I mean -- that's the reason I was asking,

20 how long is going to take for others to be exposed? I

21 mean, it seemed like a lot to me.

22 BY MR. BLAKE:

23 I don't -- I don't really -- I don't really

24 know. It depends on, you know, where you are, what

25 kind of soil it is. There are just a lot -- there are

00030

01 so many variables.

02 Like I say, that's just not my area of

03 specialty.

04 BY MR. OSBORNE:

05 I have a copy of the Fort Jackson newspaper from

06 last fall that states that they were going down and

07 doing the same type of deal that is being done at

08 Croft State Park in these areas, cleaning up from

09 years and years and years ago.

10 BY MR. BLAKE:

11 Out at Fort Jackson?

12 BY MR. OSBORNE:

13 Right. The one thing that I kept the paper for

14 was the interest in that they were making sure that

15 the old cemeteries that they were finding were redone

16 and cleaned up and protected.

17 BY MR. BLAKE:

18 Now, that's probably about what they're doing,

19 because they don't -- they don't have enough people to

20 do much. I can tell you that right now. There's not

21 many -- they just don't have many people that can

22 actually do that.

23 And they -- they kind of specialize -- they

24 specialize in one area that we -- that we would

25 normally not do. You know, they're looking for areas

00031

01 where you have mines. That's something that generally

02 on -- fortunately for us, on US soil that's not

03 something the Army was foolish enough to put out live

04 mines, and we've heard some rumors that they've done

05 that, but I don't think that's been borne out by

06 anything we've ever seen. So that's -- that's the

07 kind of things that they do, Bosnia and places like

08 that. I think we found one anti-tank line up here and

09 it was German made. Someone had brought it back and

10 dumped it out.

11 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

12 One more question, Lincoln, before you go on. I

13 don't mean to belabor this, but on a surface cleared

14 area, what do you consider safe for public use?

15 That's what I need to know.

16 BY MR. BLAKE:

17 When you surface clear an area, if you're only

18 going to use it for surface use, we consider it safe.

19 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

20 And as in -- give me a better definition than

21 that. Do you mean digging? Do you mean punching a

22 stick in the ground or anything of that nature?

23 BY MR. BLAKE:

24 No digging.

25 BY MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:

00032

01 Just walking; is that ---

02 BY MR. BLAKE:

03 Just walking.

04 BY MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:

05 --- about the size of it?

06 BY MR. BLAKE:

07 Right.

08 BY MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:

09 That's all you can do.

10 BY MR. BLAKE:

11 I think -- I think that's borne out, yeah.

12 Borne out, probably, by all the traffic you've had

13 over the last 40-odd years.

14 BY MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:

15 50 years.

16 BY MR. BLAKE:

17 That we're not having -- we're not having things

18 go off left and right.

19 I'll get on track -- we'll maybe get on track

20 here, and then we'll -- we'll come back and hit some

21 of these questions if you'd like to -- like to hit

22 them again.

23 I know, Gerard, you said you haven't seen it,

24 but according to Wayne, there was a clearance letter

25 issued. You might want to check with Columbia and see

00033

01 -- we can see what we can find out on the horse

02 trails.

03 BY DR. LOWRY:

04 May I ask Gerard if the State then plans to post

05 these areas as being safe or unsafe?

06 BY MR. PERRY:

07 I don't know.

08 BY DR. LOWRY:

09 I think he's working on a sign. I mean, he

10 showed us a sign he was working on that was going to

11 be used to post these areas, 30 feet off the horse

12 trails. Since the Corps doesn't feel like it has to

13 do it, are you all going to do it?

14 BY MR. PERRY:

15 Dr. Lowry, I don't know about that. I don't

16 think Wayne is -- I think the sign issue was discussed

17 in Columbia, but nothing was finalized yet.

18 BY MR. BLAKE:

19 I don't -- I don't know what the resolution was,

20 either. I really -- I really don't.

21 BY DR. LOWRY:

22 I think -- I think this -- I think I'm on record

23 as -- as requesting it, so I just wanted to know.

24 BY MR. OSBORNE:

25 Have all the signs down at the Park been

00034

01 removed?

02 BY MR. PERRY:

03 Which signs are you talking about?

04 BY MR. OSBORNE:

05 They were there last time when they were still

06 cleaning up before they closed up and left.

07 BY MR. PERRY:

08 Yeah. Those areas, yeah. But they're still

09 closed. They have tape around the signs that were

10 taken down.

11 BY MR. OSBORNE:

12 But there's nothing like the -- those warning

13 signs that you had down at the little stOre an all

14 that? Are they -- are they still there?

15 BY MR. PERRY:

16 We've still got the signs on the trails that

17 remain on the trails.

18 BY MR. OSBORNE:

19 So if a person goes down there, a tourist or

20 whatever, and starts walking out in the woods and

21 starts pounding or carrying a stick or hitting it into

22 the ground, they're not going to know what's going on,

23 right?

24 BY MR. PERRY:

25 Well, most people stay on the trails when they

00035

01 go out, and they usually stop in the store or the

02 office to find out where the trails are and we give

03 them the information there.

04 BY MR. OSBORNE:

05 Well, that's like in the little committee that

06 we had it was brought up, especially at the -- where

07 the trailer park was last time adjacent to a bad area,

08 and we were -- one of the things that we brought up at

09 that time, how can you control kids unless you keep

10 them into the trailer or the camper or whatever so

11 they don't go out there?

12 BY MR. PERRY:

13 Controlling kids is the parents' problem. I

14 mean we can't control everybody that goes in the Park.

15 I mean, we're not baby-sitters.

16 BY MR. OSBORNE:

17 I understand that, but if the parents do not

18 know that you have an area that's -- that's not posted

19 down there to go in and ask that ---

20 BY MR. PERRY:

21 There's a big sign coming into the main gate

22 that the Corps put up. That's still lit.

23 BY MR. OSBORNE:

24 Okay. But like I say ---

25 BY MR. PERRY:

00036

01 When people stop and read the sign, they stop

02 and ask us questions, and we tell them information.

03 BY MR. BLAKE:

04 Do you still have brochures out there, Gerard?

05 Brochures?

06 BY MR. PERRY:

07 Your -- I think we're out of those.

08 BY MR. BLAKE:

09 I wish I could help some on that. I remember

10 that being discussed in Columbia, too, but, like I

11 said, I've been moved to greener pastures.

12 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

13 Gerard, can I ask they way -- if a tourist comes

14 to you and asks you -- after they've seen the big sign

15 and they come to you and say, "What areas are safe to

16 let my child go into," what do you tell them?

17 BY MR. PERRY:

18 Well, we tell them the trails. Most of the kids

19 don't like to walk the horse trails anyway. They

20 usually go down in the playground area or the pool

21 area or the lake, and all of those areas have already

22 been cleared.

23 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

24 Do you warn them about any areas if they come to

25 you?

00037

01 BY MR. PERRY:

02 Not warn them. We tell them that it used to be

03 a military base and that the Corps has been working on

04 the Park to remove ordnance, but most of the stuff

05 they've found has been mostly in the woods and they

06 don't usually go down into the woods.

07 BY MR. GARY HENDERSON:

08 Okay.

09 BY MR. BLAKE:

10 This report we expect to be finalized within the

11 next 60 days, and that's the removal report that's on

12 our last removal action.

13 Let's talk a little bit about the current

14 removal action, and the only area we're working on

15 right now is Unit 6, and that's really on Dr. Lowry's

16 property.

17 The work -- he's doing some construction on a

18 pond, and we've got human factors out there working on

19 the job, and they've got about 20 days, and their

20 completion date is supposed to be the 22nd of June.

21 I guess then the thing of most interest is they

22 will be in -- as soon as that work is done, their

23 contract is going to be modified to look at some of

24 these other areas that we've gotten some reports of

25 that I talked about earlier.

00038

01 So if anyone knows anyone else that needs us

02 look or has some information that might help, we'll

03 probably keep them around to do that.

04 I don't know how much this is of interest to a

05 group, but I guess if we ever got into a situation

06 with any kind of a business, this might come into

07 play.

08 We've been trying to get some clarification on

09 our authority to reimburse someone. Just say if we

10 get into situation where we have to shut down a

11 business, then we reimburse the property owner while

12 we're doing a removal action. It's sort of been a DOT

13 policy that they have not done that in the past that

14 these removal actions are extremely expensive, that --

15 I guess you might say that we're doing the property

16 owner a good deed. I'm sure that's what some of the

17 property owners think.

18 BY DR. LOWRY:

19 I don't agree with that.

20 BY MR. BLAKE:

21 That wrote that. But I'm just saying that's --

22 that's how things have sort of been looked at.

23 BY DR. LOWRY:

24 Well, ---

25 BY MR. BLAKE:

00039

01 I know Dr. Lowry has been putting some pressure

02 on our -- I'm sorry.

03 BY DR. LOWRY:

04 I did not put the ordnance there, and I

05 don't ---

06 BY MR. BLAKE:

07 And I agree -- I agree with you, but I'm just

08 saying I think ---

09 BY DR. LOWRY:

10 And I don't want to get into a fuss with you

11 again, but I didn't put that ordnance there.

12 BY MR. BLAKE:

13 Absolutely, and I agree with you.

14 BY DR. LOWRY:

15 And there's no record that ordnance was there.

16 BY MR. BLAKE:

17 And I -- and I agree with you.

18 BY DR. LOWRY:

19 And you all don't have records that it's there.

20 BY MR. BLAKE:

21 Don't ---

22 BY DR. LOWRY:

23 You're not doing me a favor. You're doing what

24 is required by CERCLA.

25 BY MR. BLAKE:

00040

01 Absolutely.

02 BY DR. LOWRY:

03 Which is the law.

04 BY MR. BLAKE:

05 It's not CERCLA, but I don't want to argue with

06 you.

07 BY DR. LOWRY:

08 It's been over six months, and we still don't

09 have an answer.

10 BY MR. BLAKE:

11 And I agree, and I was going to point that out.

12 Let's kind of sort of start over.

13 I think -- I think the headquarters approach has

14 been like that. You know, there were a lot of

15 policies, and our office has raised the questions, and

16 why can't we do this? We think we ought to do that,

17 and we've been trying to get headquarter's approval,

18 and as Dr. Lowry so applicably put, we haven't been

19 very successful in getting an answer, but at least we

20 don't have a "no" answer, and it's in one of our

21 assistant secretary's hands right now.

22 Anyway, our -- our agreement right now is that

23 the work that we do over there will not affect the

24 landfill operation. I think that's working pretty

25 much to satisfaction. You haven't been impacted, yet,

00041

01 I don't think, so I know -- I know that it's slowing

02 down work and it's an irritation to those that have to

03 do the work, and it's also an irritation to you.

04 We're all doing our best to see if we can't overcome

05 it.

06 And we do have some work slated for Area 6,

07 there's the grid 87 and some more construction areas

08 that are over there that will need some clearances,

09 and that pretty much completes what I was going to

10 say.

11 BY MR. DAVID MULLINAX:

12 Does anybody have any questions?

13 BY MR. MCBAIN:

14 I have a hypothetical situation.

15 BY MR. DAVID MULLINAX:

16 No hypothetical situations. How about

17 questions? Any questions?

18 BY MR. MCBAIN:

19 It involves a question in part. You were

20 discussing payment for the cleaning up the land, and

21 there is so much of this land. You mentioned some of

22 it was supposedly fenced or it was supposed to have

23 been fenced and wasn't fenced, and we've had,

24 including Attorney General's opinion, that if they

25 find anything valuable on the property, that it

00042

01 belongs to the property owner, but who is paying for

02 the cleanup of the private property and how many

03 groups or units do you have in here working right now,

04 and who is paying their salary?

05 BY MR. BLAKE:

06 Who is paying? All of us are. We, the

07 taxpayers, are paying every bit of it.

08 BY MR. MCBAIN:

09 In other words, it's coming through the Corps of

10 Engineers?

11 BY MR. BLAKE:

12 It's coming through the Corps of Engineers.

13 BY MR. MCBAIN:

14 Through the contract.

15 BY MR. BLAKE:

16 We've got a program called the DERP, which is

17 the Defense Environmental Restoration Program. It's

18 an operation and maintenance site cleanup and Army

19 cleanup, and the Corps is responsible for that program

20 for all the services which include being able to

21 cleanup the camp, but only on formerly used defense

22 sites. Obviously, it's an active program and takes

23 care of the areas.

24 And there are these sites all over the place.

25 It's not a unique situation. I think the good thing

00043

01 that I can see out of this for the people in this

02 area, an awful lot of these places aren't funded, and

03 no one knows when they'll be funded, because there's

04 very limited funding. Congress I don't think

05 anticipated how much this program was going to cost,

06 and we've been experiencing some very large cuts. The

07 real good news about this is that projects have

08 started have pretty much the funding has continued and

09 they're going to let them finish the project. There's

10 a lot of -- I know there are a lot of sites out there

11 getting started and Lord knows when they will. It's

12 like the EPA Super FUD program. It's just not enough

13 money to do everything that everyone would like to do.

14 I'll just conclude with that.

15 BY MR. OSBORNE:

16 I've got a couple questions. Going back to last

17 year.

18 BY MR. BLAKE:

19 Excuse me. How can I cut this off? Can I cut

20 this off?

21 BY MR. OSBORNE:

22 Going back to the two incidences that earlier

23 that when the units were still here that I found on

24 certain properties down in the cantonment area, and

25 when I got there, they all ran. Is there ever going

00044

01 to be a report made on what they were doing there and

02 what they found there? And the third one was up on

03 the other road up there at Ramantanin's property,

04 which was supposed to have been cleaned on the

05 previous cleanup, then they're in there exploding

06 mortar equipment, and from what I was told also, that

07 this is going to be on the new one that's coming out

08 because there's more explosives there.

09 BY MR. BLAKE:

10 I'm not familiar with what you're talking about.

11 This is kind of new history to me. Wayne may know

12 what you're talking about, but I'm just not familiar

13 with it at all.

14 BY MR. OSBORNE:

15 Then, in so many words, what I had said at the

16 last meeting and the pictures I showed and so forth

17 stopped at that point?

18 BY MR. BLAKE:

19 I'm just not familiar with what you're saying.

20 I just haven't been working with the program. Now if

21 it's something that's in that report, I can kind of

22 tell you. But if it's something that's happened at

23 one of the meetings, I'm not privy to what happened at

24 the previous meeting.

25 BY MR. OSBORNE:

00045

01 Well, it's just like at the start of last year.

02 You wanted people to go out and contact people that

03 knew something, which I did. I had made reports on

04 certain people that had lived in the Croft area for

05 years. One of them is a Deputy Sheriff that knows

06 where a lot of property -- things that were located

07 and found. Nobody has come over to talk to him yet.

08 Another one that I reported was a former member

09 of the Park Department that knows where a bunch of

10 bunkers are down there that he can lead us to, but

11 nobody has still contacted to go down to take a look

12 at.

13 I'm sort of wondering what in the world are we

14 doing?

15 BY MR. BLAKE:

16 If you will -- if you will give me the

17 information, I'll be sure it's here. Like I said, I

18 know that several people, who don't want to be named,

19 contacted us, given us maps, and I know they're going

20 out to look at the areas, but that's about all I can

21 tell you about it because I haven't looked at the maps

22 at all. I understand we already have them. I talked

23 to Huntsville this morning, and they said that's part

24 of this modification in the contract for them to look

25 at some of these areas.

00046

01 BY MR. OSBORNE:

02 Well, it's just like on the piece of paper I

03 brought from the paper with the picture of the big

04 bunkers that they did over a million dollars worth of

05 construction. Have we done anything about locating

06 where these bunkers are or what's going on?

07 BY MR. BLAKE:

08 I'm just -- I'm just -- I'm just not privy to

09 that information, so I don't know.

10 BY MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:

11 Harold, ---

12 BY DR. LOWRY:

13 Harold, we've got a fellow here that's filling

14 in and doesn't know all this past history, and I don't

15 think it's fair to ask him.

16 BY MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:

17 Wayne was up here. He took some people -- I

18 mean, I -- I run into him and showed him some maps.

19 He was up here with some people showing them, and they

20 were showing him areas.

21 Now you're getting back to that $2 Million

22 Dollars. That $2 Million Dollars was not for bunkers.

23 It was for igloos. I've got the map of the camp here.

24 I've got the history of it. They budgeted $10 Million

25 Dollars to build this camp. They went back for $2

00047

01 Million Dollars to build igloos and some chapels, and

02 the camp liked to have washed away on them, and they

03 had to go back for some more million dollars to fill

04 it back in.

05 So that bunker that you're talking about is an

06 ammunition bunker over here on Dairy Ridge Road. They

07 built seven of them. Now if they built this whole

08 camp for $10 Million Dollars, what could they do with

09 $2 Million Dollars?

10 Seven of them was built.

11 BY MR. OSBORNE:

12 Nine.

13 BY MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:

14 Well, I mean, at that time. They went back to

15 get some more money to build some more, and they had

16 not built chapels at Camp Croft. So that $2 Million

17 Dollars built six chapels.

18 BY MR. THOMPSON:

19 I'm going to one of them.

20 BY MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:

21 Yeah, I know. We have a man here going to one

22 of them. But now, I mean, I've got the history of it.

23 I went through it just to check back on it. And like

24 I say, the Camp was budgeted for $10 Million Dollars.

25 $450,000 to buy the property.

00048

01 So, like I say, they could have done a lot of

02 things with $2 Million Dollars.

03 BY MR. BLAKE:

04 Back then they could.

05 BY MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:

06 Yeah.

07 BY MR. MCBAIN:

08 May I interject a question?

09 BY MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:

10 Yeah.

11 BY MR. MCBAIN:

12 Do you have any copies, blueprints or anything

13 relating to the Blue Ribbon project or to the work

14 that was done by the CCC before the, quote, Military,

15 end quote, took over out here?

16 BY MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:

17 No.

18 BY MR. MCBAIN:

19 You don't have any of it?

20 BY MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:

21 No. I've just got all my -- it starts with Camp

22 Croft, and there's the maps right there showing every

23 building, everything that's on this Camp.

24 BY MR. DAVID MULLINAX:

25 Do we have anymore questions?

00049

01 (NO RESPONSE)

02 BY MR. DAVID MULLINAX:

03 Suzy McKinney, I think you wanted to go over the

04 1998 Advisory Board?

05 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

06 Okay. Real quickly, I'll address about public

07 records in the new library. All the Camp Croft and

08 documented information is being maintained in the

09 Kennedy room. The documents that are here this

10 evening we're going to get copies of, and within the

11 next couple of weeks, all current documents will also

12 be at the library for your review.

13 As our By-Laws are written, the Board serves a

14 two year term, and, come January, two years will be

15 up, and several of you may be grateful and several of

16 you may want to serve another two years.

17 What we're proposing to do is we have in the

18 guidance and in our By-Laws, we have Community

19 Interest Forms. We have some available back here.

20 Anyone in the public that's interested, as well as

21 Board Members, in completing a Community Interest

22 Form. Board Members can elect, if they want to, to

23 serve or express an interest to serve a second two

24 year term.

25 We'll collect those Interest Forms over the next

00050

01 several months. We have a deadline at the end of

02 October to receive all those Interest Forms. We'll

03 talk about them again at the next meeting in

04 September. We'll also issue a press release towards

05 the end of the summer so that the public who don't

06 usually attend our meetings are also aware of this

07 opportunity to serve.

08 Submit all forms to us, and in September we're

09 going to go through the logistics of a selection panel

10 and a review panel to go through those forms. The

11 selection panel will then identify the individuals

12 they would like to see serve on the Board representing

13 diverse community interest, such as yourselves. It's

14 the same process that has you on our Board now.

15 That selection panel, they will then forward

16 their names of those individuals to the Corps of

17 Engineers for final approval, and we should have a new

18 Board in place January or February of next year.

19 BY MR. BLAKE:

20 Do you think I could be on it? Maybe I could

21 grill Wayne?

22 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

23 Sit on the other side of the table, right?

24 So we do have some of those forms. If we run

25 out, give me your name and address, and we'll get them

00051

01 to you, and we'll have those available, like I said,

02 through the summer, into the fall; and by the end of

03 October we hope to have everyone that's interested to

04 have completed a form, and then we'll start the review

05 and selection process.

06 Okay.

07 BY MR. DAVID MULLINAX:

08 Under New Business, I think, Mr. Jim Thompson,

09 you wanted to have the floor first.

10 BY MR. THOMPSON:

11 Thank you. All of you in front of you have a

12 memo that George started about six months ago, I guess

13 now, George, working to try to get some headstones for

14 the two gentlemen that were killed in 1945.

15 You can see the memos have been going back and

16 forth to Bob Inglis from the -- what is it -- the

17 Secretary of the Army or the Commanding Officer and

18 the Department of the Army they have about some of the

19 Acts, the Military Claims Acts of 1947, so on and so

20 forth, '45. You notice that nothing is being done.

21 So we can't get anything through the government,

22 so what I did last week or the week before last, I

23 approached one of our local tombstone monument

24 companies, John Brown's Memorials, and he's agreed to

25 put up two headstones. He drew them out so that

00052

01 everybody could see them, what they would look like.

02 The next step that I would like to take, George, is to

03 contact Bob Inglis and have him to present us with a

04 resolution from the government, and I think that's

05 what Jessie back there would like to see happen.

06 It's our understanding that both of them are

07 buried in Mount Calvary Baptist Church cemetery; is

08 that correct?

09 BY MR. JOHNSON:

10 Yes, sir.

11 BY MR. THOMPSON:

12 With no headstone. Mr. Brown would like to have

13 about four or five weeks before he could do anything

14 because of 4th of July holiday and so forth, and --

15 but he is willing to provide us with the two

16 headstones for the graves, and I would like to get a

17 hold of Bob Inglis in the meantime and have him do

18 something for the resolution of the families, and I

19 believe we can get that done. I believe Bob would

20 like to do that, but he was trying to get the

21 headstones first.

22 That's -- that's about it, David. So sometime

23 within the next -- Suzy has offered to do all the

24 ground work on it, and sometime, maybe in the next

25 couple of months, we'll get some type of ceremony or

00053

01 something using Bob Inglis to do it.

02 BY MR. MCBAIN:

03 May I make a suggestion? Ask Congressman Inglis

04 if he'll send down a couple of flags flown on the

05 Capital?

06 BY MR. THOMPSON:

07 Oh, we can do that very easily.

08 BY MR. MCBAIN:

09 Should be able to.

10 BY MR. THOMPSON:

11 Yeah.

12 BY MR. MCBAIN:

13 He's got a contingency fund that he can finance

14 whatever else you have.

15 BY MR. THOMPSON:

16 Oh, we can do that very easily.

17 So, anyway, we've got the headstones, David.

18 BY MR. DAVID MULLINAX:

19 Okay. Does anybody have anything else?

20 BY MR. JOHNSON:

21 Yeah. I -- well, I would just like to say I

22 appreciate what you all are doing, and it makes me

23 feel a little bit better. Now I'd like to understand

24 where these headstones are coming? Is it coming

25 through the panel up here, or is it coming through the

00054

01 Engineers, or where?

02 BY MR. THOMPSON:

03 No, it's coming from the people of Spartanburg

04 County.

05 BY MR. JOHNSON:

06 Okay.

07 BY MR. THOMPSON:

08 Mr. John Brown of John Brown Memorials is

09 donating the headstones.

10 BY MR. JOHNSON:

11 Oh, you've already talked to him.

12 BY MR. THOMPSON:

13 Is that a satisfactory answer?

14 BY MR. JOHNSON:

15 Yes, sir.

16 BY MR. THOMPSON:

17 Okay.

18 BY MR. JOHNSON:

19 He was here before.

20 BY MR. MOORE:

21 Yeah, I'm Lawrence Moore, brother of Aubrey

22 Phillips, and I don't get to attend too many meetings,

23 but I'm like Jessie, we appreciate the effort that you

24 all have shown us through all this. Thank you.

25 BY MR. THOMPSON:

00055

01 Lawrence, we don't know where your brother is

02 buried. Do you know where he's buried?

03 BY MR. MOORE:

04 I was a little bitty boy, so I know about in the

05 neighborhood, but ---

06 BY MR. THOMPSON:

07 Would somebody ---

08 BY MR. MOORE:

09 Yes, sir, I'd have to get directions from the

10 church and find out exactly.

11 BY MR. THOMPSON:

12 They would have the records for it then?

13 BY MR. MOORE:

14 Sure.

15 BY MR. THOMPSON:

16 Yeah, if you would, would you look into that and

17 find it?

18 BY MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:

19 And mark it -- put us a marker.

20 BY MR. MOORE:

21 All right.

22 BY MR. THOMPSON:

23 Put a marker there.

24 BY MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:

25 So we'll know where it's at.

00056

01 BY MR. THOMPSON:

02 Now, Jessie, you said you think you know where

03 yours is?

04 BY MR. JOHNSON:

05 I know.

06 BY MR. THOMPSON:

07 Okay. Put a marker there so we'll know when we

08 get ready to have the ceremony.

09 BY MR. JOHNSON:

10 Okay. If you all would be talking with me when

11 you do that and I'll meet you over there.

12 BY MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:

13 Oh, yeah.

14 BY MR. THOMPSON:

15 Oh, yeah. We'll be talking with you.

16 BY MR. JOHNSON:

17 We can go over there, and, you know, figure out

18 where everything is going to go, and then if you all

19 come in and if I'm not there, you know, you can go in.

20 BY MR. THOMPSON:

21 Okay.

22 BY MR. JOHNSON:

23 But just call me. My name is in the book.

24 BY MR. DAVID MULLINAX:

25 Does anybody have anything else?

00057

01 (NO RESPONSE)

02 BY MR. DAVID MULLINAX:

03 Is there a motion to adjourn?

04 BY MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:

05 So move.

06 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

07 So move.

08 BY DR. LOWRY:

09 Second.

10 BY MR. DAVID MULLINAX:

11 Okay. All those in favor?

12 (ALL IN FAVOR/NONE OPPOSED)

13 BY MR. DAVID MULLINAX:

14 Suzy, I believe the next meeting is in

15 September.

16 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

17 September 10th. That's the Tuesday, I believe,

18 after Labor Day.

00058

01 STATE OF SOUTH CAROLINA )

01 ) CERTIFICATE

02 COUNTY OF SPARTANBURG )

02

03

03

04

05

06 This is to certify that the within

07 RAB meeting was taken on the 10th day of June, 1997;

08 That the foregoing is an accurate transcript of

09 the meeting;

10 That copies of all exhibits, if any, entered

11 herein are made a part of this record;

12 That the undersigned court reporter, a Notary

13 Public for the State of South Carolina, is not an

14 employee or relative of any of the parties, counsel or

15 witness