00001

01 CAMP CROFT RESTORATION ADVISORY BOARD MEETING

01 *******************************************************

02 PLACE: SC School for the Deaf and the Blind

03 Swearingen Conference Center

04 DATE: Tuesday, February 8, 2000

05 TIME: 7:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m.

06 PRESENTATION

06 GIVEN BY: Ronald Nesbit

07 Project Manager

07 U.S. Army Corps of Engineers

08 Charleston District

09 BOARD MEMBERS

09 PRESENT:

10 Clary H. Smith, Chair

10 Gary Hayes

11 William B. Littlejohn, Jr.

11 W. Brownlee Lowry

12 David Mullinax

12 George D. Mullinax

13 Robert W. Powell, Jr.

13 Stonewall J. Stewart, Jr.

14 Sherry Wheeler

14 Darwin J. Wilson

15 BOARD MEMBERS

16 NOT PRESENT:

16 Joseph L. Crissinger

17 Conley McIntyre, Sr.

17 Gerard Perry

18 Sanford N. Smith

19 ALSO PRESENT:

19 Suzy McKinney

20 Zapata Engineering, P.A.

20 1100 Kenilworth Avenue, Suite 104

21 Charlotte, North Carolina 28204

22 REPORTED BY:

22 Sandy Satterwhite Reporting

23 P.O. Box 742

23 Roebuck, South Carolina 29376

24 (864)574-1455

00002

01 INDEX

02 Welcome by Mr. Clary H. Smith. . . . . . . . . . . . 3

03 Acceptance of New RAB. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3

04 Nominations for RAB Chair. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6

05 Status of Removal at OOU6. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7

06 Activities Planned for Wedgewood . . . . . . . . . . 7

07 New Business . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .14

08 Certificate of Reporter. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .63

00003

01 BY MR. SMITH:

02 We'll come to order -- come to order now. Our

03 regular meeting of the RAB will confer now, and we

04 will -- well, I would just like to welcome you all

05 here today. All of you guests, we just appreciate --

06 the Board members we just appreciate you all, and we

07 still have some that are not -- haven't gotten here

08 yet, but we just appreciate you all coming and hope

09 the input you give us will be good, and now we'll just

10 turn it over to Suzy.

11 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

12 Again, welcome this evening. First item on the

13 agenda is the new RAB for the upcoming year. As you

14 all are aware, the RAB is intended to reflect diverse

15 community interests.

16 As our Bylaws are written, we have a RAB that

17 has a term of two years and members can serve two

18 terms, and we're now at the end of the second year of

19 this most current term.

20 And extensive efforts were made this past fall

21 to make everyone aware of the opportunity to be

22 considered to serve on the RAB. We had announcements

23 in the local newspapers, and the meetings this past

24 summer and fall we announced that opportunity and made

25 available community interest forms, and we also placed

00004

01 those forms in the library.

02 As of the deadline for submittal, which was the

03 end of October, the only forms that we received were

04 those from the current RAB members. We received no

05 new interest forms this year.

06 Two individuals on our RAB did not choose to

07 resubmit. So at this point in time, what I would like

08 to do, is open it up for any questions from the Board

09 whether there should be -- say this again -- any

10 questions on accepting the Board as is from those

11 forms that were submitted.

12 We did have discussions with the Corps of

13 Engineers and several RAB members whether or not to

14 disband the Board because of the lack of additional

15 interest, and these individuals had indicated, based

16 upon their time and energies to date, that they did

17 not want to see that happen.

18 So from our current RAB, are there any questions

19 about accepting the RAB minus Mr. Jim Thompson, who

20 did not choose to resubmit, and Ed Hall for the Board

21 for the year 2000?

22 Would one of you ---

23 BY MR. SMITH:

24 Do you want a motion?

25 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

00005

01 Yes.

02 BY MR. SMITH:

03 We have a motion to accept the RAB Board as

04 presented?

05 BY MR. LOWRY:

06 So moved.

07 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

08 Second.

09 BY DR. POWELL:

10 Second.

11 BY MR. SMITH:

12 Any discussion? Anyone have any?

13 (NO RESPONSE)

14 BY MR. SMITH:

15 Those in favor say aye.

16 (ALL RESPOND)

17 BY MR. SMITH:

18 Any oppose?

19 (NO RESPONSE)

20 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

21 Thank you. So the RAB for the year 2000 for the

22 next two year term will consist of -- and I don't have

23 -- I don't want to name everybody. We've got the

24 individuals up here. Sanford Smith will also be on

25 the Board. Jim Thompson and Ed Hall will not serve

00006

01 for the upcoming year.

02 With that, the next topic at hand would be the

03 Chair. The Chair for this RAB serves a one year term,

04 and Jim Thompson has selected, again, not to serve for

05 the next term. And I would like to see from the Board

06 if there are any nominations for a Chair for the

07 upcoming year?

08 BY DR. POWELL:

09 Clary Smith. Good man.

10 BY MR. LOWRY:

11 We have a motion. Second.

12 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

13 Do you -- do you accept the nomination?

14 BY MR. SMITH:

15 I'll -- I'll try. I'll do my best.

16 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

17 Okay. All right. Clary Smith will be the Chair

18 for the upcoming year.

19 And that's all I have as far as the RAB. So

20 we're off for another two years. And with that, I'll

21 turn it over to -- Ron, are you up?

22 BY MR. NESBIT:

23 Yes.

24 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

25 For the status of the removal at Dr. Lowry's

00007

01 property OOU6.

02 BY MR. NESBIT:

03 Good evening, everyone. For those of you that

04 don't don't know who I am, my name is Ron Nesbit, and

05 I'm project manager from the Charleston District,

06 Corps of Engineers.

07 Hopefully, everything else will go as easy as

08 the election went, especially some other items that we

09 have to discuss a little later.

10 In reference to the OOU6 area, which is the

11 property of Dr. Lowry, as far as the clearing

12 concerned, that work began late January in terms of

13 clearing and has been moving rather slowly, as we

14 expected because of the type of terrain involved, as

15 well as, of course, with the snow and everything else

16 that's been going on. So that's in progress and will

17 continue to be worked until it's completed. Okay.

18 Activities planned for the Wedgewood

19 subdivision, I'll just give you a brief scenario as to

20 where we are and what's happening and what's the next

21 step.

22 Currently, the Corps is in the process of

23 preparing for the next step, which is the intrusive

24 investigation process for the subdivision, which, of

25 course, some of the individuals that are in that

00008

01 subdivision have been notified both by Zapata, they've

02 been talked to by our folks from Savannah District

03 from real estate and other people involved with the

04 Corps in terms of making this happen.

05 One of the things that's involved is an actual

06 relocation of individuals in that subdivision for a

07 short period of time during the actual work taking

08 place.

09 That's scheduled to begin, hopefully, between

10 late February to as early as early March. Once that

11 begins, we will continue with that process until we

12 have completed the entire subdivision area.

13 At this point in time, we suspect that it should

14 not take no more than one to two days, thereby, per

15 property in terms of when an individual or groups of

16 individuals may have to be out of their home during

17 the process of the actual intrusion removal or

18 investigation. So keep in mind we're not looking at

19 everyone being moved out of the subdivision at the

20 same time.

21 Based upon the way the work plan is set up,

22 there will be groups of people, based upon the safety

23 factors involved, that will take groups and actually

24 relocate them during the time of the actual work

25 taking place. It does not mean 24 hours or all day

00009

01 and all night that you will be out of your home.

02 Essentially, what we're looking at all the work taking

03 place during the daylight hours. Okay.

04 That's what's planned and where we are as far as

05 Wedgewood is concerned.

06 I would like to address one other issue before I

07 sit, and that is, we've had some concerns, some

08 questions about some concerns of some past questions

09 that have been brought to the RAB in terms of

10 questions of ammunition, bunkers, tanks, and so on.

11 Yes, sir.

12 BY MR. HOLT:

13 Yeah, I'm Ed Holt. I'm a resident of Wedgewood.

14 Before we go too far, ---

15 BY MR. NESBIT:

16 Yes.

17 BY MR. HOLT:

18 --- are you saying the people that you're going

19 to have to do an intrusion on their property have

20 already been notified?

21 BY MR. NESBIT:

22 No.

23 BY MR. HOLT:

24 Or are we still waiting?

25 BY MR. NESBIT:

00010

01 They have been notified that it's going to

02 happen. The actual date and time frame when it will

03 happen, they have not been given that information,

04 yet, but they will be given that information in enough

05 time so that they can make arrangements.

06 BY MR. HOLT:

07 Okay.

08 BY MR. NESBIT:

09 As I was saying, there have been questions about

10 some earlier items brought forward for action to be

11 taken by the Corps in terms of ammunition, bunkers,

12 tanks, rifles and so on, and at date felt that no

13 action actually had been taken.

14 The position has been in the past and still is

15 that we cannot respond to questions of this type

16 without having the question brought forward officially

17 in a formal process in terms of in writing with some

18 factual information documenting, such as name of

19 people, persons involved, telephone numbers, so that

20 we can, in fact, do an investigation, if necessary,

21 and compare it to what we may have already done to

22 determine whether or not we may have already taken

23 care of the situation previously or in the process of

24 doing so at that time.

25 So, there have been a number of items brought

00011

01 forward earlier on, and repeatedly it's been asked

02 that if you've got these questions, got these

03 situations that you know about, bring them forward and

04 we'll look at them and make a determination of what

05 needs to be done or how it can be done.

06 Nothing has been ruled out, but that's the

07 process that we're forced to function under, and

08 that's the function -- I mean, that's the process that

09 we have to go by.

10 Two things important to keep in mind: It's a

11 risk to public property and individuals that we're

12 concerned about. That's what this whole process of

13 clearing property is involved in, eliminating as much

14 risk to the public as possible. When you look at

15 bunkers, bunkers, typically, is not a risk to the

16 public. Rifles is not a risk to the public.

17 So I just want to make certain that everyone

18 understand the rules that we're governed by and what

19 we have to follow in terms of our investigation and

20 how and what we must have in hand before we can, in

21 fact, establish or begin an investigation.

22 So, unless someone has got something beyond what

23 we've had before ready to submit that will provide

24 names, maps, places, a location that we can identify,

25 and so on, we would like from this point and on --

00012

01 from this point on, if you have a question about the

02 previous, about something right now or something going

03 on further, we'll have to have that before we even

04 discuss it. Okay.

05 Yes, sir.

06 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

07 Ron, also, would you please make sure that your

08 card or Zapata's is available so that this information

09 can be transmitted at other times beside when we're

10 having a RAB meeting. It could be basically

11 transferred, transmitted or sent to you at anytime

12 during a normal business week.

13 BY MR. NESBIT:

14 Sure can.

15 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

16 It doesn't have to be held until we have one of

17 these meetings.

18 BY MR. NESBIT:

19 Agreed.

20 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

21 Okay.

22 BY MR. NESBIT:

23 Any other questions?

24 (NO RESPONSE)

25 BY MR. NESBIT:

00013

01 Thank you.

02 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

03 Clary, before we go on to new business, I just

04 want to make a comment, again, to follow up with Mr.

05 Holt. As far as the Wedgewood residents in

06 preparation for the activities that are scheduled to

07 commence the end of February, early March, we will be

08 in contact with each of the property owners with

09 adequate time either as a separate meeting or one on

10 one to make you aware of the schedule, the

11 accommodations and the logistics that will be in place

12 for you during that period of time.

13 So it's not going to be two days before someone

14 is going to be in your yard that you're going to be

15 told what the situation is. So we'll make sure

16 everyone is up to date on that.

17 And as far as just general availability of

18 information, everyone who is on our mailing list has

19 received a flyer for these meetings. In the event

20 that you're new to the meetings or not yet on our

21 mailing list, there is an 800 number that you can

22 contact Zapata Engineering anytime you have questions

23 or want to find out the status of a meeting or an

24 activity, and that number, toll free, is 888-242-8862.

25 Again, 888-242-8862.

00014

01 And we also have a web site. There's a web site

02 available through the Corps of Engineers. It was

03 brought to our attention it hasn't been as current as

04 it probably needs to be, but the Zapata Engineering

05 web site has a link to a Camp Croft web site where we

06 keep the schedule posted, and you can access that

07 www.zap -- z-a-p-e-n-g.com. Right? Zapeng.com. And,

08 I think if you put a back slash Camp underscore Croft,

09 it will get you to our specific site on Croft. If

10 not, I think within the Zapata Engineering site, if

11 you link on environmental projects, you can get to the

12 Croft page that way.

13 So we're trying to make as available as possible

14 information to be apprised of the current and future

15 projects; and, again, don't hesitate to call the 800

16 number. And if I don't know an answer, I'll do my

17 best to get that answer for you.

18 And, Clary, if you want, I'll just open it up to

19 any ---

20 BY MR. SMITH:

21 Okay.

22 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

23 --- new business from the RAB.

24 BY MR. SMITH:

25 Do we have any new business from any of our RAB

00015

01 members?

02 Gary.

03 BY MR. HAYES:

04 I was just wanting to ask is there going to be

05 100 percent participation in Wedgewood as far as

06 clearance?

07 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

08 I believe, Karl, do you want to address that?

09 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

10 Yes. At this time, we've got three properties

11 in Wedgewood that we don't have rights of entries for.

12 So, without those, we can't do anything on those three

13 individual properties.

14 BY MR. HAYES:

15 Will you be able to do any work on the ---

16 BY INDIVIDUAL IN AUDIENCE:

17 Is that why you haven't ---

18 BY MR. HAYES:

19 --- properties next to theirs because ---

20 BY INDIVIDUAL IN AUDIENCE:

21 Is that why you haven't gone on them?

22 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

23 Yes, sir. That's why we haven't gone in and

24 mapped them, Wedgewood.

25 BY INDIVIDUAL IN AUDIENCE:

00016

01 I'll give you mine.

02 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

03 Oh, okay. All right. Good. So now we have two

04 individual properties that we don't have rights of

05 entries.

06 BY MR. HAYES:

07 Are they next to properties that need to be ---

08 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

09 Yes, sir, they're essentially central to the

10 subdivision.

11 BY MR. HAYES:

12 So if these people don't want their -- I mean,

13 if the people next to them want their property

14 cleared, these people next to them would have to move

15 out during the daytime, right?

16 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

17 We -- we'll be asking them to, yes.

18 BY MR. HAYES:

19 Okay.

20 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

21 If we can't them to, there may be portions of

22 the property that we do have rights of entry for that

23 we can't clear because of the safety requirements.

24 BY MR. HAYES:

25 Yeah. Is that ---

00017

01 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

02 That will delineate further ---

03 BY MR. HAYES:

04 Is that a problem you all have solutions for

05 or ---

06 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

07 No. No. If someone won't let us -- if they

08 don't want to sign a right of entry, you can't make

09 them as far as -- John, help me -- help me if I'm

10 wrong.

11 BY MR. HINELY:

12 Right now there's only one so far that has not

13 signed anything. The mail out that Zapata did

14 requesting the number of individuals in a home,

15 everybody mailed those in -- well, not everybody.

16 There's four that haven't mailed those in, but of

17 those four, only one of those is a person who has not

18 signed a right of entry.

19 So the other ones who haven't signed a right of

20 entries also, they did do the questionnaire that went

21 out asking how many people are in their home, any

22 animals, special needs. So they appear to be willing

23 to leave their home. They just didn't want to sign

24 the right of entry.

25 BY MR. HAYES:

00018

01 Okay. Well, that's one thing I wanted to

02 address is whether it would hinder somebody from

03 getting their land clear whether they would not move

04 out in the daytime.

05 BY MR. HINELY:

06 So far.

07 BY MR. HAYES:

08 But they have agreed to move out.

09 BY MR. HINELY:

10 Yeah. Everybody -- there has been one -- one

11 address in there who has not responded to either

12 request, right of entry or the mail out for the number

13 of individuals in the home.

14 BY MR. NESBIT:

15 One thing I might mention, John and those will

16 be making additional visits to visit those two

17 families again to try to still get their approval by

18 means of a right of entry; but if any member of the

19 Board might be willing to talk to them about the

20 rational of what we're doing and why, that will be --

21 that will be appreciated as well.

22 BY MR. HAYES:

23 Or you can just work around their schedule. If

24 they wanted to work during the week, they can work

25 around their schedule.

00019

01 BY MR. NESBIT:

02 The only one -- let me be clear about one

03 important factor there. Rights of entry gives us the

04 authority to actually go on one's property to actually

05 do what we need to do, in other words, dig, whatever.

06 If they refuse to give us that authority or sign the

07 document giving us that authority, then we can't go on

08 their property.

09 BY MR. HAYES:

10 Yeah.

11 BY MR. NESBIT:

12 And that's where Karl was relating to, if we're

13 involved with a safety factor, then we're going to

14 have to look at some type of special situation to try

15 to get as much accomplished within those criteria we

16 can on the property adjacent to it.

17 Okay. And that might not be as easy as it

18 sounds.

19 BY MR. HAYES:

20 Yeah.

21 BY MR. NESBIT:

22 I just want everyone to be aware of that up

23 front, because, depending upon where it's located,

24 what the safety zones are, and if they're still -- and

25 if they'll be cooperative by leaving their homes,

00020

01 that's fine; but if they don't be cooperative and do

02 so, then that could cause some delay and some other

03 problems associated.

04 BY MR. HAYES:

05 Monetary, too.

06 BY MR. NESBIT:

07 Yes.

08 BY MR. SMITH:

09 Suzy, let me ask a question. What's the status

10 of that property that you all cleared right below the

11 First Baptist ball field in that area. Right at

12 Carolina Country Club and West Croft or Croft Circle.

13 No. Across it -- no, excuse me. That would be Cedar

14 Springs Road. Cedar Springs. Excuse me.

15 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

16 It was 11 -- it was 11 each. Hang on just a

17 second.

18 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

19 That we -- we cleared the brush off of it and

20 mapped it.

21 BY MR. SMITH:

22 Yeah. Yeah.

23 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

24 But we won't -- we'll start intrusive work on it

25 after we finish Wedgewood.

00021

01 BY MR. SMITH:

02 Oh, okay.

03 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

04 But it is under contract to be cleared.

05 BY MR. SMITH:

06 Any others?

07 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

08 Mr. Stewart.

09 BY MR. STEWART:

10 Yes. I was wondering if certain information

11 cannot be passed on to the Board members previous --

12 previous before the meeting. I think in order for the

13 Board to be more effective, we need on some occasions

14 to have a briefing with each other. Some of us hardly

15 know each other and some just aren't speaking. I'm

16 being very fair. I've been with you for two years.

17 But we can't have too much of a good

18 relationship unless we talk and dialogue over some

19 things, and I think most of the time that I know of,

20 because I've been here two years, and we only have an

21 input -- only hear about this at the meetings, so we

22 don't have a chance to sort of, in the way of

23 speaking, to kick those issues around and to get a

24 feeling of each other.

25 So if we're going to be effective as Board

00022

01 members, I think we should get to know each other a

02 little better and dialogue with each other, and this

03 is my personal feeling. Now I want to be effective,

04 and I want to be of some help, but it's pretty hard

05 when, you know, everybody is doing their individual

06 thing.

07 So I was just wondering if some information

08 could be passed from time to time and feel that's very

09 important to the Board members, and we can make

10 arrangements to meet before the meetings and have a

11 dialogue on some of these issues.

12 BY MR. SMITH:

13 Any other Board members have any feeling on

14 that?

15 BY MS. WHEELER:

16 I think it would be a good idea if it can be

17 worked out.

18 BY DR. POWELL:

19 I'd like to have a list of the Board members.

20 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

21 It should be in your notebook.

22 BY DR. POWELL:

23 Okay. The new one?

24 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

25 You should have it under -- yes, this past

00023

01 Board, everyone is in there.

02 BY DR. POWELL:

03 Okay.

04 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

05 With addresses and phone numbers. What I can do

06 to help effect that is send an agenda between three

07 and four weeks -- maybe three weeks ahead of the next

08 meeting.

09 BY MR. WILSON:

10 Or a couple of weeks.

11 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

12 And that way -- yeah, a couple of weeks, and

13 that way you all will have an agenda, and if you need

14 my assistance to put a pre-meeting together -- what we

15 don't want to have, I don't think, is a separate RAB

16 meeting before our actual RAB meeting. If you all

17 take the liberty on your own to make phone calls and

18 discuss as you need ---

19 BY MR. SMITH:

20 That will probably help us some.

21 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

22 So I'll make sure to get an agenda to you two to

23 three weeks prior.

24 BY MR. STEWART:

25 Thank you.

00024

01 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

02 And then that way you'll have a list of the

03 topics to be discussed.

04 BY MR. WILSON:

05 These people that are wanting everybody to sign

06 their right of entry, now, you know, if any of us know

07 them, if you have their names or whatever, it might --

08 possibly let one of us go and talk to them or anybody

09 together, just let us know when you're going or if you

10 want anyone to go with you.

11 BY MR. NESBIT:

12 We can make that information available to you.

13 In fact, John and those will be here tomorrow, and

14 before you leave tonight, we can let you know who the

15 individuals are, and you might know the individuals.

16 I don't know.

17 BY MR. WILSON:

18 Also, if you've got a piece of property that you

19 have a right of entry on and you determine there is a

20 danger there and cannot do anything with it because

21 the neighbor that wouldn't let you enter on it, there

22 must be some way that some type of action can be

23 taken.

24 BY MR. NESBIT:

25 That's a difficult question you just asked.

00025

01 BY MR. SMITH:

02 That's legal.

03 BY MR. NESBIT:

04 We are, in fact, looking at different ways of

05 dealing with those situations. In fact, we've

06 actually talked to our legal folks; and at this point

07 in time we haven't gotten any defined answer. The

08 answer, in general, has been that we can't force

09 anyone to give us right to their property. Okay. But

10 we will look into that a little further.

11 BY MR. SMITH:

12 Wedgewood, has it been gridded and already

13 surveyed -- surveyed, and now you've just got to go in

14 and pick up what's -- what you found?

15 BY MR. NESBIT:

16 Yes.

17 Yes.

18 BY MR. STRANGE:

19 Ronnie Strange. I live in Wedgewood.

20 BY MR. NESBIT:

21 Yes.

22 BY MR. STRANGE:

23 I'm just -- that really amazes me. Like in a

24 case if there was a hazardous waste situation on

25 private property, ---

00026

01 bY MR. NESBIT:

02 Uh-huh (affirmative response).

03 BY MR. STRANGE:

04 --- in that case they could be forced to allow

05 someone entry to clean up the property; is that

06 correct?

07 BY MR. NESBIT:

08 I'm not certain. You might could, but I don't

09 know.

10 BY DR. LOWRY:

11 You may have -- you may have hit on it, because

12 DHEC is in charge of ---

13 BY MR. NESBIT:

14 Hazardous waste.

15 BY DR. LOWRY:

16 --- human health.

17 BY MR. STRANGE:

18 Right.

19 BY DR. LOWRY:

20 Whereas the Corps may not be able to do it, if

21 you all complain to DHEC that the Corps has identified

22 something that could be dangerous to your health

23 living right next door, ---

24 BY MR. STRANGE:

25 Right.

00027

01 BY DR. LOWRY:

02 --- then DHEC -- I'm just guessing, DHEC

03 probably could do something about that, and I think it

04 would be ---

05 BY MR. STRANGE:

06 OSHA -- would OSHA have anything to do with

07 that?

08 BY DR. LOWRY:

09 I don't think so. I think DHEC would. I think

10 it would be kind of selfish of a person not to leave

11 their home for four hours while your property is being

12 cleared of one item that might be too close to their

13 house or to safely go in. We could shame them into

14 it, if necessary, but I don't think that's the answer.

15 BY MR. STRANGE:

16 It just really amazes me. I mean, we've got

17 children in the neighborhood, and what's to keep them

18 from wandering, you know, just off the property and

19 into a potential hazardous situation?

20 BY DR. LOWRY:

21 Well, I have the -- I'll give you my number.

22 I've got the general counsel of DHEC's number in my

23 office. My son used to be on it. You can ask them

24 about it.

25 BY MR. STRANGE:

00028

01 Okay.

02 BY MR. HAYES:

03 Is all the -- with the warm weather coming up,

04 is all the public access areas of Camp Croft, the

05 State Park, are all those cleared now? Is all that

06 ready for the camp to open now or is there not -- or

07 is there some areas that have not been completely

08 cleared?

09 BY MR. NESBIT:

10 Correct me if I'm not wrong -- if I'm wrong, but

11 areas that we've identified based upon risk factors

12 involved and working with the park service and what

13 not, that which could be opened based upon what we

14 have done and based on the recommendations we have

15 given them, I believe they will have open.

16 Now, to tell you that all areas of the park is

17 available for use, no.

18 To tell you that all of the trails are

19 necessarily available for opening, I can't tell you

20 that.

21 The areas that we have actually done

22 investigation and so on are the only areas that we can

23 really speak of and the park service are in control of

24 that.

25 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

00029

01 And to help a little bit, that's the areas that

02 the park identified to us as the public use areas. We

03 cleared all those. There are some areas in the

04 outside of those areas off in the woods, but there are

05 no trails or anything to them. We still have work to

06 do.

07 BY MR. NESBIT:

08 Right.

09 BY MR. HAYES:

10 But they're blocked off?

11 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

12 Excuse me?

13 BY MR. HAYES:

14 Or signs up?

15 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

16 There are supposed to be signs. I know they put

17 up quite a few signs. I'm not sure exactly how many

18 they put up, but most of the areas that we know of, we

19 have to go back to the variances.

20 BY DR. LOWRY:

21 Do we not have an agreement in this room that no

22 one is to bring in ammunition into this room?

23 BY MR. MULLINAX:

24 I thought so.

25 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

00030

01 Oh, we did. I wasn't aware of that.

02 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

03 Well, there's a sign and we made ---

04 BY MR. LOWRY:

05 It was an agreement, and I appreciate you

06 getting it out of here.

07 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

08 May we ask you to please take that back to

09 where ---

10 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

11 Yeah. Well, it's not live. It's just ---

12 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

13 That doesn't make any difference.

14 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

15 Okay. Well, it is live.

16 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

17 We're in a public facility with public involved.

18 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

19 I understand that. This was found four weeks

20 ago right beside Edmund Holt's house. It was right

21 after Zapata ---

22 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

23 I've asked you to please take that out, Mr.

24 Zimmerman.

25 BY MR. SMITH:

00031

01 Take it.

02 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

03 And it's .30 caliber, hundreds, thousands of

04 them buried on that land.

05 BY INDIVIDUAL IN AUDIENCE:

06 (Inaudible).

07 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

08 Yeah, there is, too.

09 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

10 As a matter of fact, why don't we go ahead

11 notify the Sheriff's Department that we've got live

12 ammunition here.

13 BY DR. LOWRY:

14 Well, it's just ---

15 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

16 Well, they know about it. I showed it to them.

17 BY MR. LOWRY:

18 But, I mean, we've got an agreement that nobody

19 would bring ---

20 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

21 I didn't know. I wasn't aware of that.

22 BY DR. LOWRY:

23 That's why I didn't bring any mortars or no

24 105s.

25 (MR. ZIMMERMAN EXITS BUILDING)

00032

01 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

02 Yes, ma'am.

03 BY MS. STEWART:

04 I have a question I'd like to address.

05 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

06 May we have your name for the record, please?

07 BY MS. STEWART:

08 I'm Ms. Stewart. Ms. Stewart.

09 As far as this is the age of information right

10 now. Most of us do not have computers in our homes.

11 I'm sure some of us do not. Those of us that have a

12 computer or have access to a computer, can we go in,

13 according to what you have stated, www.zap and so

14 forth, ---

15 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

16 Yes, ma'am.

17 BY MS. STEWART:

18 --- and -- or have you sent all residents a

19 letter saying that we should still not go into Croft

20 State Park? I have never been to any area of Croft

21 State Park, so I don't know anything about it, but

22 have you sent out letters or some type of form of

23 information that you're still working in the area;

24 because, since this is the year 2000 right now we're

25 into, what took place last year was last year.

00033

01 What -- or are you planning to do that so that

02 residents and people coming in to visit will know that

03 it's still dangerous? Or is there somebody there at

04 all times to direct them not to come in?

05 (MR. ZIMMERMAN RETURNS)

06 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

07 Go ahead, Dr. Lowry.

08 BY DR. LOWRY:

09 I don't mean to keep the floor here, but I'm

10 getting hungry.

11 We as a RAB Board recommended to the people in

12 the state that all areas that were not safe be posted,

13 that signage be placed. And so on the horse trails,

14 15 feet off of the horse trails, there are supposed to

15 be signage. Any area that you're not supposed to go

16 into is supposed to have signage. There's a no dig

17 policy that is supposed to be printed on their flyers

18 and on the sign as you go in.

19 And you basically, if they followed our

20 recommendations, shouldn't have any trouble finding

21 those signs. There are places in the park that have

22 been cleared that are safe. There are places that

23 have not been investigated, and, basically, we've

24 recommended that all those be off limits until they

25 were and signage should be posted. That's for anybody

00034

01 coming in out of state or anything else.

02 BY MS. PORTER:

03 My name is Louvenia Porter. Okay. Last year

04 you were in and out of Wedgewood all year, in and out

05 of the State Park all during the year. Why you don't

06 clean up one area before you jump to another area?

07 You're not concentrating on cleaning up this side

08 before you jump on this side. Finish up one thing

09 before you start another.

10 You've got a little bit of whatever all over the

11 place and haven't really got nothing done. You're

12 right back in the same spot you was in from last year.

13 The same spots. You're starting out with the same

14 spots you finished up with last year.

15 Camp Croft consists of more than three areas.

16 Camp Croft is a big place. So now if you stay in

17 these three areas for the year 2000, you never will

18 get the job done because you're staying in the same

19 spots all the time. Finish up one, then go to another

20 one.

21 BY MR. NESBIT:

22 Let me address that in two ways. One is we may

23 start in an area and go somewhere else and start in

24 another area and then come back to an area. That's

25 because you're dealing in terms of phases. We've got

00035

01 different things that happen at different times at

02 different locations based upon the risk factor

03 involved. Okay.

04 We did an earlier on investigation in the area

05 where we're about to go at now. They had to analyze

06 the information that was gathered from the information

07 that they got from the equipment that they actually

08 took over the property. Once the analysis had been

09 determined what potentially is there, then you

10 schedule to go back for intrusion if, in fact, it's

11 felt that that's necessary.

12 BY MS. PORTER:

13 But ---

14 BY MR. NESBIT:

15 So you've got phases, plus it's associated with

16 the dollar amount of money that you have available, as

17 well.

18 BY MS. PORTER:

19 But, just like he just did, they're finding

20 stuff over the areas you've been over. You know, if

21 you -- if you can go back and find something and all

22 this money and all this time and effort been spent in

23 this particular yard, and this man can go out there

24 and pick up something and find hundreds of these

25 things still buried ever how deep, that means somebody

00036

01 is not doing their job. I mean, all this is wasted

02 for nothing.

03 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

04 Are you -- you're talking about Wedgewood,

05 aren't you?

06 BY MS. PORTER:

07 I'm talking about any of the project.

08 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

09 But I think the ammunition that was just brought

10 in here was from Wedgewood.

11 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

12 Wedgewood Drive.

13 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

14 And you -- you haven't -- right.

15 BY MR. SMITH:

16 They haven't done ---

17 (SEVERAL BOARD MEMBERS COMMENT SAME)

18 BY MR. NESBIT:

19 Not Wedgewood.

20 BY MR. SMITH:

21 They just mapped it. Just gridded it. That's

22 all that's been done in Wedgewood.

23 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

24 All they've done is map where they think things

25 may be. They've not gone back and dug it and searched

00037

01 it.

02 BY MR. NESBIT:

03 The actual process of a removal hasn't taken

04 place in that area, yet. That's what scheduled to

05 take place in the latter part of this month or early

06 next month.

07 BY MS. PORTER:

08 And then the next three months when we come back

09 to the meeting it will be the same thing. Note it.

10 Put it in your book, and I'll bet you see the same

11 thing.

12 BY MR. SMITH:

13 Hope not.

14 BY MR. NESBIT:

15 I hope not in that area.

16 BY MS. PORTER:

17 I hope not either, but that's the way it's been

18 for the last five years, and I've been coming to all

19 the meetings.

20 BY MR. FULLER:

21 I'm Jim Fuller. I have a question. When they

22 mapped my area, they did not follow the lot boundary.

23 They were their own lines, so I've got a section that

24 has not been mapped. Will they map that by hand or

25 something or what will they do for that?

00038

01 BY MR. NESBIT:

02 Hold on one second.

03 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION AMONG INDIVIDUALS IN THE

04 AUDIENCE)

05 BY MR. FULLER:

06 Well, that's not my question, though. My

07 question is will you get that or are you going to just

08 skip it?

09 BY MR. HINELY:

10 We have mapped all of your area of all your

11 property.

12 BY MR. FULLER:

13 All that's in the boundary?

14 BY MR. HINELY:

15 Yes, sir.

16 BY MR. FULLER:

17 Of my property. Okay.

18 BY MR. HINELY:

19 If I had a right of entry for your property, we

20 have mapped all that area.

21 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

22 And to answer it a little better, I hope, we'll

23 clear everything, no matter where their lines went or

24 what they mapped so far with certain pages.

25 Basically, we clear everything, so ---

00039

01 BY MR. FULLER:

02 By hand.

03 BY MR. HINELY:

04 By hand.

05 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

06 Yes. Yes, sir.

07 BY MR. FULLER:

08 Okay. That was the answer I was looking for.

09 BY MR. SMITH:

10 Anyone else have any questions?

11 Yes, ma'am.

12 BY MS. MOLNAR:

13 I'm Abbie Molnar. I might be mistaken, but I

14 didn't catch the ad in the paper that there was a

15 meeting tonight. I did get my flyer in the mail.

16 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

17 Okay.

18 BY MS. MOLNAR:

19 Because I've been here before, but is that the

20 Corps of Engineers or the Corps supposed to make sure

21 that is advertised through the paper?

22 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

23 I send a press release to the paper. I do not

24 issue a paid advertisement for each meeting. If those

25 press releases are not being announced -- I get the

00040

01 paper about a week after I have requested it to be run

02 -- I can go ahead and start having a paid

03 advertisement so that it will show up and it's

04 guaranteed. If ---

05 BY MS. MOLNAR:

06 Like I said, I was just curious for people don't

07 know about it and are one of the ones that do have an

08 interest, they don't have any idea.

09 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

10 I think the papers tend to pick up when they

11 want to those press releases. What I can do for the

12 next several meetings is issue actually a paid

13 advertisement to make sure those individuals are

14 aware. Thank you.

15 BY MS. MOLNAR:

16 I do have one other thing.

17 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

18 Yes, ma'am.

19 BY MS. MOLNAR:

20 Just one. There was a question brought up in

21 the meetings, and I ---

22 BY THE COURT REPORTER:

23 Excuse me. I'm sorry. Everybody, I cannot hear

24 her. I'm sorry.

25 BY MS. SMITH:

00041

01 Speak a little louder. Stand up.

02 BY MS. MOLNAR:

03 There was a question in one of the other

04 meetings, and I know some of this stuff gets kind of

05 wild, but one of the questions was about the water and

06 the lakes out in Croft; and I wondered if any Board

07 members had any idea whether it had been checked, had

08 it been tested, was it safe? That was brought up to

09 the Board, and we never heard any replies on it.

10 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

11 Are you referring to the E-Coli incident?

12 BY MS. MOLNAR:

13 No, it was just one of the members of the public

14 in the last meeting asked about the lake water.

15 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

16 Well, I think there were some wells in question

17 off of Henningston, and it seems like at the same time

18 there was some issues over there off Glendale and

19 White Stone Road, also, and I believe DHEC checked --

20 checked those wells. They was a question of some

21 chemicals or whatever that night. It seems like DHEC

22 may have been involved in that.

23 BY MR. SMITH:

24 That would be up to the State Park to test that.

25 BY MS. MOLNAR:

00042

01 Is that not a concern of the Board? Is that not

02 something that ---

03 BY MR. SMITH:

04 We cannot force them. No, ma'am. We have ---

05 BY MS. MOLNAR:

06 No, I don't mean to force them, but, I mean, has

07 anybody looked into it?

08 BY MR. SMITH:

09 Yes.

10 BY MS. MOLNAR:

11 Has anybody checked and found out anything?

12 BY MR. GEORGE MULLINAX:

13 I talked to DHEC, a DHEC man about it, and he's

14 tested wells; and he said the only way he can go in

15 there is get a request that there is something there,

16 and he will -- he will definitely check because I

17 talked to him after the last meeting.

18 BY MS. MOLNAR:

19 So does that have to be the state ask that since

20 the lakes are on state property?

21 BY DR. LOWRY:

22 I think the Department of Fish and Wildlife has

23 investigated it.

24 BY MR. MULLINAX:

25 Yes, and DHEC has -- has checked some wells.

00043

01 They said they checked some that they had complaints.

02 BY MS. MOLNAR:

03 Well, ---

04 BY MR. MULLINAX:

05 They didn't find anything.

06 BY MS. MOLNAR:

07 --- this was in the actual two lakes that were

08 on the Croft property?

09 BY MR. MULLINAX:

10 Yes. Right.

11 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

12 And as a reminder, again, the RAB and the

13 process that we're involved with is ordnance and

14 explosives and unexploded ordnance.

15 So if those issues are more of a hazardous waste

16 type of nature, it might be beyond this forum. If

17 Fish and Wildlife Service has followed up and DHEC has

18 followed up, then that's in that agency's purview.

19 And what I can do for the next RAB meeting is make

20 some phone calls and see if I can't bring some of that

21 to closure as far as who would be responsible and if

22 it is within the realm of this group or a separate

23 entity, and I will follow up on that

24 BY DR. LOWRY:

25 Could you also ask them what they have done to

00044

01 date, if anything?

02 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

03 Okay. Okay. I will also ask. Okay.

04 BY MR. SMITH:

05 Any other questions? Any ---

06 BY MS. SPARKS:

07 I have a question. My name is Mary Sparks, and

08 it refers to what you said about the Board giving

09 advice about these notices being put up. Is there any

10 part of this Board or any entity that goes back to see

11 if that's been done? And if not, is there any

12 recourse to ensure that that's done, because that

13 seems like a very important public safety issue to me?

14 BY DR. LOWRY:

15 One of the people that used to be on this Board

16 is Gerard Perry, who is the chief park ranger.

17 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

18 He is still on the Board.

19 BY DR. LOWRY:

20 He still is.

21 BY MR. MULLINAX:

22 He's still on it.

23 BY DR. LOWRY:

24 He informed us that these signs have been put

25 up. I have not personally been out there.

00045

01 BY MR. MULLINAX:

02 Well, they fenced in an area, too, Dr. Lowry.

03 BY DR. LOWRY:

04 And they fenced in that 40 acres in that ---

05 BY MR. MULLINAX:

06 Right.

07 BY DR. LOWRY:

08 --- first area. I don't think we have any legal

09 authority to require them to do that. I think they

10 would be ill advised not to take the advice as such

11 has been published in the paper and so forth.

12 BY MR. NESBIT:

13 And from the Corps during some of our site

14 visits and what not, we have encountered the signs

15 being posted, the fence, in particular, since it's

16 been put up and so on, so they are or have been

17 putting signs up.

18 BY MR. SMITH:

19 If I'm not mistaken, he -- Gary brought them.

20 BY DR. LOWRY:

21 He brought us a sample of a sign.

22 BY MR. SMITH:

23 Right. Right.

24 BY DR. LOWRY:

25 But I don't know whether they were posted.

00046

01 BY MR. SMITH:

02 Yeah, I'm not sure where he put them. I knew he

03 brought a sample of what they were supposed to post.

04 BY DR. LOWRY:

05 We made a specific recommendation as to what

06 they would post.

07 BY MR. SMITH:

08 Right.

09 Any other questions or comments?

10 BY MS. PORTER:

11 Well, this is -- this is -- this is Louvenia

12 Porter, again. This is something pertaining to what I

13 just asked.

14 I know you all don't want to hear it but you

15 need to hear it, but right here it's saying, Mr. Bogan

16 said the activities scheduled for Area Three cleanup

17 would not occur in this Wedgewood area until February.

18 All the work in this area was scheduled to begin in

19 August, and then would be sent to the landowners

20 clarifying the schedule. The following report should

21 be completed by next May, and this was in '96, and

22 this is 2000.

23 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

24 I'll interject briefly. Wedgewood was

25 investigated specifically for some hand grenade

00047

01 incidents. A supplemental archive search and

02 additional review was conducted that indicated that

03 there was still a risk in the area, and that is what

04 has rerouted funding and activities now back to

05 further investigate the residences and -- which will

06 be to the intrusive investigation as a populated area.

07 There is no -- if there's additional information that

08 comes forth to indicate there's still a risk, then

09 that is what has driven the process to be back in

10 Wedgewood.

11 So it was investigated. You are correct, and

12 additional information subsequent to that became

13 available that there was still a risk.

14 BY MS. PORTER:

15 But from '96 to 2000?

16 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

17 I -- I was about to ask, four years it's been

18 going on?

19 BY MS. PORTER:

20 Yeah. Yeah.

21 (SEVERAL BOARD MEMBERS SAY, "NO.")

22 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

23 We have also cleaned up OOU7. We have also

24 cleaned up ---

25 BY MS. PORTER:

00048

01 But this has been on here again? This

02 situation, right?

03 BY DR. LOWRY:

04 No. No.

05 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

06 It has not been continual.

07 BY MS. PORTER:

08 Well, what I'm saying is you all have tiptoed

09 around this area from '96 until now.

10 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

11 Well, let me refer to Karl.

12 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

13 Can I help a little bit?

14 BY MS. PORTER:

15 Somebody needs to.

16 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

17 Five years we've been in here working. We've

18 cleared hundreds of acres. We finished them. We're

19 done. We've cleared several areas in Wedgewood.

20 We're finished with those. They're clear, but after

21 we cleared them, we determined there were other areas,

22 not only in Wedgewood, but in the park and outside the

23 park that needed to be cleared as well. But we've

24 been making very good progress on clearing the areas

25 that need to be cleared for the last five years.

00049

01 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

02 Well, what are you clearing, and when did you do

03 all of it?

04 BY MS. PORTER:

05 Right here on your ---

06 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

07 You've got them.

08 BY MS. PORTER:

09 Right here.

10 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

11 They're on all the maps.

12 BY MS. PORTER:

13 Right here.

14 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

15 I've got copies of the maps.

16 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

17 And if you'll please go look in your records in

18 the library, there's a removal report that tells

19 everything that's been cleared.

20 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

21 I read that thing.

22 BY MS. PORTER:

23 Yeah. Right here.

24 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

25 Well, it's in there and in the public records.

00050

01 BY MS. PORTER:

02 Oh, he confiscated that he personally had picked

03 up a case of 81 millimeters mortar on Wedgewood Drive.

04 Mr. Bogan said he would follow up with this individual

05 and again emphasized that if anyone had any questions

06 to come forward. Now ---

07 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

08 Suzy, if I remember correctly, there's also been

09 some financial restraints during the year during the

10 budgeting process that has restricted some of these

11 activities as far as follow up and things like that,

12 also?

13 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

14 And we've gone through this on several different

15 occasions, including this evening, that there's

16 budgets that drive how much you can do in a given year

17 and there are phases and steps to these processes from

18 initial site investigation to records review to

19 geophysical mapping, collecting the data, to

20 evaluating the data to making the determination on the

21 associated risks, and then we go in and do removal

22 actions.

23 And sometimes it's two years from the time of a

24 site investigation until the time that you can dig

25 because of all of the processes that have to take

00051

01 place and the budgets that might drive what happens.

02 We have had Time Critical Removal Actions that

03 have occurred on private property and on park property

04 that have reduced and minimized the immediate threat.

05 Those occurred in '95, '94 and '95 time frame.

06 We have had two engineering evaluations be

07 conducted out here that included Wedgewood and areas

08 of the park and other private property that included

09 these records reviews and the data collection.

10 And from there you've got, again, to look at the

11 risks, where the public has access, where there is no

12 risk. Even if there is a munition out there, if no

13 one can get to it, that risk is lower so that you can

14 spend your money where you're going to be most

15 effective, and all of that is a lot of juggling and a

16 lot of time.

17 And as Karl has said, I believe there's been

18 over 600 acres that have been cleared that are deemed

19 safe. You also have to remember that you can't clear

20 100 percent. No matter what the Corps of Engineers

21 does and their contractors do, you will never be able

22 to clean up the 19,000-plus acres that once comprised

23 Croft to 100 percent.

24 So you have to clean it the best that you can in

25 the areas that the public is going to be exposed, and

00052

01 that's the process that has been taken.

02 As far as .30 caliber or .50 caliber, those are

03 small arms. Those are not considered munitions or UXO

04 or OE under this program. As much as that is laying

05 around, it's not going to explode when you pick it up

06 as far as this program is concerned.

07 For the risks, the items that pose the most

08 threat to the public are what the objective of the

09 project is throughout the cleanup, and it's tedious

10 and it's time consuming and there's a lot of land out

11 there to look at.

12 BY MS. PORTER:

13 I know. I was raised up around here.

14 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

15 Yeah.

16 BY MS. PORTER:

17 I know.

18 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

19 And that -- I think if you look and sit back and

20 look at the steps that have been taken, it looks like

21 there's been some sits and starts, and I think with

22 any project like this there may have been some sits

23 and starts. We're back on track and we're trying to

24 make everyone out here as safe as possible.

25 BY MS. STEWART:

00053

01 I like your information. Ms. Stewart, again.

02 I think it's something -- I'm sitting here

03 listening to what you just said. You just gave some

04 valuable information which I did not know, and I have

05 come to several meetings with my husband.

06 I think you on the Board need to think about

07 maybe every six months do a newsletter. I mean,

08 inform people. This is the age of information.

09 People need to know what's going on.

10 I've heard more from you tonight than I've heard

11 since I've been attending the meetings. That's

12 valuable information, and I think something that the

13 Board members, again, need to think about, get

14 together. Have a report among all of you sitting here

15 facing me maybe once every three months or something,

16 whatever you come up with, and get this information

17 out to the residents because all of us pay taxes.

18 We need -- we each need to know what's going on.

19 Something could come up later, and we wouldn't know

20 about it. Some people may like to come to the

21 meetings and haven't been able to. They're unable to

22 get here.

23 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

24 That's very good as far as input. We will look

25 into a newsletter. We will also look into possibly

00054

01 just a public relations piece in the newspaper to ---

02 BY MS. STEWART:

03 Yes.

04 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

05 To bring folks up to date. Mr. Gary Henderson

06 with the newspaper used to attend most of these

07 meetings, and he was -- he kept up with a lot of the

08 status of the projects, and, unfortunately, he's not

09 been to the last several. So we'll try to get that

10 back in motion.

11 BY MR. SMITH:

12 Any other?

13 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

14 You're saying all those dozens and dozens and

15 dozens and scores and scores and scores of boxes of

16 .30 and .50 caliber ammunition that are all over that

17 golf course right behind these people on Wedgewood's

18 houses, as the years go by and these things chemically

19 defabricate, going in the water supply, that's nothing

20 to worry about, right? I mean, that's nothing?

21 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

22 As far as an immediate threat from an unexploded

23 ordnance perspective, no. I mean, that's not to say

24 it's not an environmental hazard. But as far as the

25 funding under this program, ---

00055

01 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

02 Which is for explosives.

03 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

04 --- we're not picking up .30 caliber and .50

05 caliber pieces of ammunition.

06 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

07 But you will be picking up 37 millimeter

08 antitank shells and 60 millimeter mortars and 2.75

09 millimeter rockets -- I mean, 2.75 inch rockets and 57

10 millimeter, big ones?

11 Karl, when you all get out there and you start,

12 you're going to see a lot of that stuff is buried.

13 Now I can't believe that they go out there and do that

14 and they take these advanced scientific detectors and

15 come back and say it's not there.

16 I can go out there with something that a

17 six-year-old can do and find it. Now, come on and

18 tell me what's going on here?

19 BY MS. PORTER:

20 Amen.

21 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

22 Excuse me for getting upset.

23 BY MS. PORTER:

24 Amen.

25 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

00056

01 I mean, people have listened to this bull shhh

02 -- whatever -- for how many years now? And Jimmy

03 Lancaster and myself can go out there any day and find

04 50 or 60 live hand grenades, mortars, 81 millimeter

05 mortars, 60 millimeter mortars, 4.2 inch mortars and

06 75 millimeter packed howitzer shells not -- so close

07 to where these people live it's not even funny, and we

08 get told, "The Board is doing something about it. The

09 Corps doesn't have enough money. Senator Strom

10 Thurmond is in the hospital" or whatever. Now give us

11 an answer and do it tonight. Is that too much to ask,

12 gentlemen?

13 BY MR. SMITH:

14 What -- what answer do you want?

15 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

16 Clary, let me address this question.

17 BY MR. SMITH:

18 I'm just want to find out what answer he wanted

19 us to give him.

20 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

21 Well, that's fine.

22 BY MR. SMITH:

23 Which answer he wants. You blurted off a bunch

24 of stuff.

25 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

00057

01 Yeah, I sure did, and I ---

02 BY MR. SMITH:

03 And what I want to know what answer are you

04 wanting?

05 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

06 Well, they keep going out there and they keep

07 doing this, Mr. Smith. They'll come in there with

08 this little grid. They've been very cooperative about

09 giving me a map when I've just asked. Such and such

10 area, hundred yards by 200 yards, 90 yards by 30 yards

11 been gridded. "We've done our magnetometers. We've

12 taken our six foot deep. We don't find anything."

13 I go out there with a little garden shovel that

14 I bought at Lowe's or something like that, plow around

15 and I come across an 81 or 60 millimeter mortar. I

16 get Officer Renna of the Spartanburg County Sheriff's

17 Department. Some of that stuff I know right now is so

18 close to where these people live it's not even funny.

19 See, it's on the ball field up here the First

20 Baptist Church is using right down right below that

21 where I know UXB has gridded. If I can't go in there

22 tomorrow and find you 20 or 30 60 millimeter mortar

23 shells, I won't come back twice.

24 Now, I don't understand Croft's ---

25 BY MR. SMITH:

00058

01 They have not said that. I haven't heard them

02 say they have not found anything there. In fact, they

03 haven't even ---

04 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

05 We haven't even looked, yet.

06 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

07 All right. You haven't looked?

08 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

09 We haven't been able to finish our work, yet, in

10 those areas.

11 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

12 Rifle ridge, some of these Laotian children come

13 down the street with them carrying them in broad

14 daylight.

15 BY DR. LOWRY:

16 Would you please ask Mr. Rick Renna to give us

17 an official count what account of ammunition has been

18 turned over to him for disposal?

19 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

20 I'll report that at the next meeting.

21 BY DR. LOWRY:

22 And report that to us, please.

23 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

24 Yes.

25 BY DR. LOWRY:

00059

01 I think I've got most of it.

02 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

03 Well, where you live, where your place is is

04 where 105 millimeter impact range was.

05 BY DR. LOWRY:

06 Well, the reason that my property was searched

07 and the property around the ranger's cabin, the

08 children's playground, and in that particular area

09 Camp Croft was searched is because those areas were

10 impact areas, and anything basically that was in that

11 area had been fired or was fused.

12 An unfused mortar or unfused 105 is not nearly

13 as dangerous as one that has been fused and fired, and

14 so there was a reason to go after those first,

15 especially when you've got hundreds and thousands of

16 people coming through an area that you find a hundred

17 81 millimeter -- I'm sorry -- 60 millimeter mortars

18 that have been fired or that are fused. There's an

19 awful lot out there that they're going to find, but I

20 think this is a very slow and tedious process.

21 They've cleared 493 105s and close to 200 mortars off

22 of my property. I appreciate it greatly.

23 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

24 I understand, Dr. Lowry.

25 BY DR. LOWRY:

00060

01 Pardon?

02 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

03 You had 105.

04 BY DR. LOWRY:

05 I had one 105 with a phosphorus center. A lot

06 of these 81 millimeter mortars on my property had a

07 phosphorus center in them, and they have to be right

08 careful with them.

09 They're down to the last five acres, after

10 they've cleared about a 100 to 150, and I appreciate

11 all they've done and I do think they've been making

12 progress. But I think the reason these two areas got

13 cleaned first was that this ammunition was fused.

14 My area didn't get cleaned first because they

15 wanted to buy it. As you know, Congress turned that

16 down. It would have been much cheaper and much

17 better, in my opinion, just to buy it and put signs

18 up, "Don't go on it," and turn it to green space, but

19 Congress didn't see it the way that the local Corps of

20 Engineers people preferred it.

21 Then they had to go back in and do more studies,

22 and so it's taken me five years to get a very

23 dangerous area where a lot of intrusive work is done

24 cleared, and they're down to the last three or four --

25 I don't know -- five acres. It's a very small piece

00061

01 of land, but something has been done.

02 There are 500 105s that are gone and there were

03 almost 200 mortars. There will be some left that they

04 probably won't find, but I think we're making

05 progress. And as long as we do it in an orderly

06 fashion and finish those areas, I think we're going to

07 be all right.

08 And Wedgewood is a populated area. It certainly

09 needs the attention of everyone, and it needs it

10 because of the danger to the children, but there's

11 also a property value issue. And so the sooner that

12 this can be done, the sooner your property values are

13 going to be safe and the sooner your children are

14 safe.

15 But I don't think that this stuff is that easy

16 to find. Robin, you may prove me incorrect, but if it

17 is, then you need to map this area and take somebody

18 to it.

19 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

20 We have and I have.

21 BY DR. LOWRY:

22 And you need to take this man and that man. If

23 they're that available, then certainly they need to

24 pay attention to it.

25 BY MR. SMITH:

00062

01 Anything else?

02 (NO RESPONSE)

03 BY DR. LOWRY:

04 I move to adjourn.

05 BY MR. MULLINAX:

06 Second.

07 BY MR. SMITH:

08 Meeting is adjourned. Thank you for coming.

09 Appreciate it.

10 (MEETING CONCLUDED AT 8:00 P.M.)

00063

01 STATE OF SOUTH CAROLINA )

01 ) CERTIFICATE

02 COUNTY OF SPARTANBURG )

05 This is to certify that the within meeting was

06 taken on the 8th day of February, 2000;

07 That the foregoing is an accurate transcript of

08 the meeting given;

09 That copies of all exhibits, if any, entered

10 herein are attached hereto and made a part of this

11 record;

12 That the undersigned court reporter, a Notary

13 Public for the State of South Carolina, is not an

14 employee or relative of any of the parties, counsel or

15 witness and is in no manner interested in the outcome

16 of this action.

17 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my Hand

18 and Seal at Spartanburg, South Carolina, this 9th day

19 of February, 2000.

22 ________________________________

22 Notary Public for South Carolina

23 Commission Expires: 3/24/07

25 (SEAL)